Who Decides What A Starter Home Should Be?

Housing feels like it is slipping away for normal families, but the hardest truth might be this: the “starter home” got redefined right out from under us. I sit down with Caleb Schmitt from Classic Buildings to unpack why affordable housing is not only about inflation, interest rates, or lumber costs. We get into how marketing shapes expectations, how bigger footprints and higher finish standards became the default, and why separating shelter from comfort and luxury is the first real step toward a lower monthly payment and less financial stress. 

Caleb shares what he is seeing on the ground, including how manufactured homes and single wide style starts used to be a practical bridge for young couples, and how zoning, code enforcement, and neighborhood restrictions often push those options out. We also talk about the hidden costs that stack up fast when people get forced farther into the county: land prices, utilities, driveways, wells, and long runs for power and water. If you care about the housing market, construction costs, and what the next generation can realistically afford, this conversation gets specific. 

We also bring it back to the shed industry and portable buildings, because more buyers are looking at sheds as living quarters or as a way to replace what used to be achievable with a basic garage or entry level build. That raises real ethical questions about safety, inspections, code compliance, and how we educate customers without feeding fear. Caleb is also writing a book, The Last 50 Years, aimed at helping people understand the true drivers behind today’s affordability crisis and what solutions actually look like locally. 

If this hit a nerve, subscribe, share this with someone trying to build or buy, and leave a review so more builders and buyers can find the conversation. What do you think matters more right now: smaller homes or better rules?

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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Geek Marketing

Solar Blaster
Cardinal Manufacturing
Velocity 360

Transcript

INTRO 0:00

You're listening to the Friday edition of the Shed Geek Podcast, brought to you by Shed Geek Marketing. At Shed Geek Marketing, we've assembled a handpicked team of specialists from across the Shed and Portable Building industry to help manufacturers, dealers, and service providers grow smarter and scale faster. From websites and SEO to Google ads, metacampaigns, content creation, video production, lead funnels, systems integrations, and industry-specific lead gen tools, we help businesses build real momentum instead of chasing random marketing trends. Today, Shed Geek Marketing is holding down this title sponsor spot at the top of the show. But this could just as easily be your company, featured right here in front of thousands of industry professionals, business owners, and decision makers every single week. If you'd like information about title sponsorship, podcast advertising, or our 2026 Shed Geek Media Kit, reach out to us at info@shedgeek.com. And now on to the podcast.

Cord 1:04

Welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek Podcast. Coming to you today from Shed Quarters. Here in a once again, very soggy, Metropolis, Illinois. We are practically uh in South Florida these days. We get a pop-up thunderstorm every day, uh, but it is keeping it nice and cool, and the corn is absolutely a bumper crop here in southern Illinois. So, we will not complain whatsoever. Today, I am so excited for this conversation. We have Mr. Caleb Schmitt on the podcast. For those of you who don't know Caleb, I think you're really going to enjoy getting to know him, um, getting to understand his perspective on things. I reached out to him because he had such compelling content that he was putting on Facebook and really deep thinking, and he's working on a whole bunch of projects, including a book, and we will talk about all that. But before we get rolling, just a couple quick ways so you know how to stay plugged in with us. Of course, you know the Shed Geek call-in line, 618-309-3648. That is Shannon's cell phone number. So, feel free to call or text any time, day or night. Our email info@ shedgeek.com, our webpage, www.shedgeek.com. And as always, stay plugged in with us on Facebook, on the Shed Sales Professionals group page. Um, and if you have anyone, uh any friends, relatives, someone that you think might be interested in the Shed Geek podcast in the playing community, we do have the playing community call-in line, 330-997-3055. Uh, so let them know. There is a great way to listen. Um, and that phone system is so advanced, you can actually go all the way back, listen to the uh entire catalog of Shed Geek Podcast episodes, and it will keep your place so that you can pick it up the next time that you dial in. So, we're really proud of that system. I would like to uh genuinely introduce today's guest, Mr. Caleb Schmitt. Um sounds like you have a lot of hats over at Classic Buildings. Maybe it suffices just to say management uh at Classic Buildings there in Linn, Missouri. Of course, that's Ken Miller for all of you out there listening. If you're in Missouri uh and you're around Linn, uh uh go and tell Ken that Shed Geek and Cord say hi. Um but you, Caleb, you're actually hailing from Great Falls, Montana. You've made it out to the big wide open west.

Caleb Schmitt 3:30

I sure have. We absolutely love it out here. It's uh it's definitely a move. It's not Missouri whatsoever. Um very different climate, different weather, different temperatures. Uh over here, 90 feels extremely hot um because of the direct sun and stuff. So, it's definitely summertime here. We've been getting rainstorms similar to you guys, though. It's been the wettest year uh here. I mean, I can absolutely remember. We've been here three years now. So, um it's good though. I won't turn it down. Not one drop of rain.

Cord 4:01

That's right. Is it uh up in that part of the country, is it still corn and soybeans? I have to admit, I have never made it to Montana. So what do they grow up there?

Caleb Schmitt 4:12

A lot of cattle country, a lot of cattle country and wheat. So, if you go north of here, probably 30 minutes or so, you start getting into a lot of wheat fields, uh, miles and miles and miles of wheat fields. Of course, it's rolling, it's a little steeper. There's a lot of areas, canyons, draws, hills, and things that they can't grow on. But uh in the flat parts up here, uh mainly that, but there's a lot of desert up here as well. So, um a lot of nothing going on. There's hours you can drive across the state without seeing a person or a human, and it's just uh man, bare dirt. Grazing cattle and a good year for grazing, it sounds like. Oh, it is beautiful. It's almost too much. The cattle are not used to that up here. So, there's been a few challenges with raising cattle for the ranches around town here. Um, we live in a small town Cascade. We got 600 people here in town, so it's in the middle of nowhere. It's beautiful, uh, right along the Missouri River. So, uh even though we're this far away from Missouri, we found your way back. Let off peace, yeah.

Cord 5:14

Yes, sir, absolutely. Oh, that's awesome. That is fantastic. I think uh historically um Lewis and Clark were trying to follow the Missouri River over the Continental Divide, if I remember that correctly. They tried to take the Missouri all the way up to the Continental Divide, and it gets a little too narrow, and they wound up obviously having to cross more than what they anticipated on foot. So um, yeah, you got a little piece of history uh that you're living on there as well.

Caleb Schmitt 5:42

There definitely is, there definitely is. Hey, one shout out, I will say, we just swat, we just swat switched over to uh Velocity 360. Uh, I tell you what, game changer. Game changer. Um, one of the biggest two things I'll say about them. One is um you got somebody to get a hold of that can solve a problem really quick. Um very back to me incredibly quickly. The second thing is that that solution-oriented mindset over there is a breath of fresh air. Um, if there is a problem with a lead, duplicate leads, um, an issue with incoming leads, any of that stuff, it's just so easy um to find a solution, implement it, and then I've seen consistency with that. So, just a small shout out for them there. And that was completely unscripted.

Cord 6:34

You're gonna come to find out during this conversation, if you're out there listening, that Caleb is not a guy who is big on uh marketing and kind of uh promotion and things like that. So, for him to say that, that is a genuine, genuine review. So, thank you, Caleb, for throwing that in. The guys at Velocity will absolutely love that.

Caleb Schmitt 6:54

So yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Cord 6:57

Maybe

Caleb’s Construction Story

Cord 6:58

um maybe give us a little bit of a background. You touched on uh Missouri, and of course you've wound up um doing everything from you know large buildings, true construction, um, down to obviously, you know, being a part of the shed, the shed business there at Classic Buildings. So, maybe just walk the audience through um and maybe give everybody a touch point. I'm sure those out there will be able to connect the dots and say, oh, well, I know, I know where that is, or I know that guy, or whatever it might be.

Caleb Schmitt 7:35

Yeah, yeah. So, my story, um, I'll start back because my love for the construction industry started very young. Um, I remember going to work with my dad in the summers when I was out of school, when I was all the way back like nine, 10 years old. In there is about where we started. He was working for an electrical contractor at the time. So as a as a nine, 10-year-old, I was out there rough wiring houses with my dad. And uh, I tell you what, running the big drill with the auger bit, putting holes through two by fours. Um, if I hit a knot, it wasn't the tool spinning, it was me, it was me spinning. So, um it goes way back into the beginning. So, at that point, um my dad switched after a few years. He was working for the first shed company that I would remember. Um, and I worked there, I believe, three summers, I believe, between school with my dad. So, um maybe I was a troublemaker. I'm not sure why I got sent to work, but I was with my dad most days. It was it was a ton of fun. Um, back breaking work. I was hand stamping all the all the rafters for the sheds. Golden rule builders out of Texas. I think they shut down a number of years ago. Um, from that point, he went into delivery for uh Leland Industries in Texas there. So I got to ride with him most of a summer delivering sheds. So, we I tell you what, we played some crazy antics with the shed trailers, and I remember one shed trailer was all the way lifted up as high as it could go. We had the shed strapped to the front, we lifted it up just to get it between two trees, just some wild days. And I remember when he when he resigned, we were moving out of state, and um that was when they were offering him a mule. So, all the deliveries that I remember were all trailer-only deliveries. Oh, wow. A hundred percent. So, definitely a different time, a different era. Um, a lot of things had changed since then. So, at that point, I mean, really, you were a cowboy back then, right? It was a cowboy. It it's just different. Um, watching a shed get delivered from what I remember as a kid is just um it's crazy. My dad would have loved one of those machines back then, let me tell you. I mean, hours trying to inch between houses is just it's different. So, yeah, from there, um, from there it would have been a few years. Me and my brother started and ran a little uh lawn care business. Um, from there, kind of got to know the business side a bit, handing out a couple thousand business cards throughout town and kind of starting that off. Um, but a number of years later, so during that time as well, I got a college curriculum on construction. And um kind of what you said about me not liking the whole marketing big words thing, that started there. I ended up throwing that curriculum out because um I had been with my dad on job sites, you know, framing electrical, HVAC, all this stuff going on, and I had never heard a single one of the words that they try to use in these books being used in the real world, and so I was like, well, real world's what I want, right? So, ended up throwing that out. Um, but uh yeah, um moving forward, I came to classic, so um had had a bit of a career in and out of construction, did a bit of remodeling, did a bit of post frame building. Um, never came back to the shed industry until classic in the management side. So, it's been a few years. I came to classic on from the housing side essentially. And what really fired me up about what you reached out to me about, which is affordable housing, started at that point. Uh actually a little previous to that point because I had just gotten married and of course um had not been the best with my money up until that point, right? I had a hot truck, but a hot truck does not cool you in the summer, eat you in the winter, feed you, or anything, right? So um my priorities changed very quickly, and what I saw out there was the difficulty of young people getting into those homes, and so that's kind of where that drive started for me with that. But yeah, that's kind of a bit of background on me. I'm very excited to work for Classic. I've been in really enjoying this, um, the innovation there, some new products, streamlining things, and just working with the team has been an absolute pleasure. And yeah, we do a lot there, we're busy, it's been a blessing of a year. Um it it's a little hot right now. Some of the crews, I mean, of course, from shed guys to contractors, it's warm right now, but uh it's a good time of year.

Cord 12:29

And the reprieve has been missing um that part of central Missouri. I've kind of noticed that, like I was saying, the storm clouds seem to pop up basically right on the Mississippi River, you know, as the as the storm as the system kind of moves across, and we've been getting a little reprieve every day, but I know it's been hot, hot out there in Missouri.

Classic Buildings And Building Types

Cord 12:51

So um, of course, I know um Ken and Classic and have known them out there um for a little bit, but maybe for those listening, I mean Classic really is, I mean, uh a structures company. I mean, you're doing everything from um you know barns to uh metal to uh portable. Am I right about uh kind of the width and the breadth of what you guys got going on over there?

Caleb Schmitt 13:19

Yeah, yeah. There's three there's three kind of uh parts to what we what we sell and promote, I'd say. Um of course there's the portable sheds in the portable side of things. We don't do much metal work. So, most of what we do is painted, uh, smart side, lap siding, um, board and bat and that type of thing. Um and then of course we have uh I'm not gonna say a newer division, but it's definitely some newer pushing into newer grounds more or less. And that is uh your multi-section style buildings, right? So, whether it's um two-story homes, um, whether it's you know kind of the monitor design or whether it's just a traditional double wide or that type of thing. So, you have that kind of setup for that um style of people. And then of course we do homes. So, we do homes, garages, detached garages, uh, bigger construction. So, it had been a bit more post-frame, but there's a lot of competition there. And um, not that we weren't winning that, but um, we had a lot more expertise in the field, especially we sell into the cities more. So, a lot of those customers and clients um we're kind of moved in that direction instead, and um do a lot of homes, do a lot of homes in-house drafting. So, design the homes, um, sell. We pretty much do all the framing, exterior, finish everything up, get it ready for interior. Um, there's a few turnkeys we've done and are still doing at this point. It's not something we push a ton, of course. We do run into a lot of people who wish we would. Yeah. Um, it it takes a particular group of um uh individuals to essentially do a lot of turnkey. So yeah, it's not been our niche right up to this point.

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Why Affordable Housing Disappeared

Cord 17:41

And so I was, for whatever reason, uh kind of served up uh some of your thoughts um on what it means to on what affordable housing means. Uh and I think, you know, the thing that stuck with me um from that very first, you know, uh Facebook post that I saw from you was, you know, it's not necessarily that housing has gotten unaffordable. It's that our expectations of housing, and particularly new housing, right? When you think about building a new house, exactly what you're saying, a a starter family, uh, you know, a young family who wants to build a house and live in it for 20, 25, 30 years, maybe for uh, you know, the rest of a lifetime. You know, I think particularly for men, that tends to be the way we think about, you know, a house is like, well, gosh, if I'm gonna build one, I'm gonna, I'm gonna build that one, you know, the way I wanted or, you know, those types of things. And but what stuck with me was um what you had pointed out, which was basically, you know, the affordable housing of the past. Um, whenever you go back to uh, you know, everybody kind of points back to really the golden age of modern America, um, you know, the 50s and then into the 60s, early 60s, um, and how people were building homes and everything seemed to be affordable. Of course, we all know that our grandparents and even our parents um, you know, were able to pretty comfortably financially afford being able to build homes, but I think what gets discounted is just what types of homes they were building. So, I don't want to take your thunder here. I really want you to be the one to drive to drive this home because I think you are so well versed. So, take over for me here, Caleb. What has what does it mean? What does it mean to have uh to build or what is the expectation of affordable housing?

Caleb Schmitt 19:41

It man, I'm gonna step back a few a few feet on this subject because I love what you said about the algorithm. What I found interesting when you first reached out to me, uh I checked, we weren't even friends on Facebook, right? Um, and you were seeing some of the things come across my feed. So, I don't even know where the connections were, but it finds the similar belief systems, similar, similar feelings, and you get where we are today. So, I found that very interesting. Um, I am passionate about it, and I will say the last year has been a journey because when I decided to kind of um push the idea of a potential book with on this exact subject, um, you know, a lot of things come to light because at the at the original time for the last number of years, I've been coming at this a little more from an emotional standpoint, right? Upset at two different sides of this, mainly the marketing. Um, marketing has changed and it controls us. So, it doesn't matter where you are at in the United States or what you're doing. Um, a lot of our ideas are simply shaped through marketing. So, my next step was to look at history. I love history. Um and I started noticing the most common way most of our parents or grandparents had gotten a start, especially as young couples, was single-wide trailer homes, right? So, you're talking cheap buildings, you're even talking a lot of a lot of young couples that I know of that did went that route. They, of course, I mean, they might have torn out some walls, but they put a lot of sweat equity into this trailer house that technically doesn't have any worth even when you're done, right? It you're not building equity in the building that much, but you had a cheap, low-cost place to live, right? So, and especially and especially in today's society were using money wisely is not common for younger people, right? So having cheaper housing means even more than it did back then. But as I looked around, I saw less and less of these trailer homes, right? And coming to find out, a lot of places it's not necessarily that people can't afford. Them, but there's two sides of it. One is marketing, of course. The other side is a lot of jurisdictions and code enforcement and things have outlawed that. So, when you look at a town or an area that's completely outlawed, what has been known all these ages as the most affordable way to live, and thrown that away, made it illegal, it's not that prices went up, right? So, you have all of these different things.

Cord 22:32

So, and then to get away from that, to multiply that problem to get outside of the jurisdiction, right? I mean, I know from experience here in Massachusetts, Illinois, the new um, you know, trailer or manufactured homes that go in basically go in in the county, right? They go in on some amount of property, whether that is five acres, ten acres, forty acres, eighty acres, who knows? But now we're one more step removed, right? We're now saying, well, the house can be affordable, but you also need to invest, you know, forty two hundred dollars per acre, right, into that piece of property. And so now that has just taken another step into unaffordability to get away from the regulation that whatever that city, municipality, you know, whatever that that structure is that has the stricter code enforcement on mobile homes. And it's a shame. Anyway, I was just throwing that little wrinkle in because I think that's part of it as well.

Caleb Schmitt 23:39

You're absolutely on the track there because now you don't you not only have the increased cost of land, you have the increased cost of getting electricity right further from where it normally is. You have an entire driveway to install. Uh, there's just so many more things. You might need to dig a well, if not run the water utilities just the same as what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Side note, too. There's an HOA up here in my neck of the woods, about 20 minutes from here. Beautiful, beautiful houses. Don't get me wrong. Um, but the wells are out in the county, unregulated by government, but regulated by HOA. Yeah, you want you want to crack up about something. HOA put meters on all their wells in order to build. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. But all these changes stack up to make create unaffordability really, really quickly. The marketing side, too, is the way people are marketed to what's online um is just it's wild, it's across the board. And it'ss kind of cool, but it's also scary, right? Because even with the entire barn dough industry, you have these couples that are um exuberant on Facebook sharing videos of their immaculate barns barn doughs, and they essentially what's different about a lot of these is they've been able to afford a lot of this because they've put the sweat equity in, right? They might not know how to lay a tile, but you watch enough YouTube videos, you figure out how to lay a tile, right? Or trial and error. Good news. Um, but you get there, and then if you want it quicker, you got to pay someone to do it, and then the amount of headache that goes into luxury. Um, but yeah, so backing up a little bit to what I was saying about kind of starting off on the more emotional side, um, because for me, it was it was kind of anger at seeing the big picture, right? What where it's going for my kids. Because when you're a dad, you think a whole lot more than you did prior, right? So, what am I leaving my kid? Well, if my kid does not get a big degree, make a ton of money, right, and have this perfect American dream picture, which is essentially selling your soul to work till you die at a high rate without enjoying the things God gives you.

Cord 26:02

And think about think about the difference in that, right? I mean, even whenever we look back, what we would what would have been called the American Dream in 1958 would have been a single story ranch style house, you know, on a slab, right? With a uh a picket fence that basically, you know, had you know, whatever, uh a tenth of an acre or something, you know, uh maybe even a little less than that, uh, you know, in the front yard, um, and then whatever, a half acre out back. And like now, I mean, that's sort of the idealized version of what the American dream was back then. And now the idealized version is, you know, a stone, uh, you know, a stone structure or a you know, uh something that has uh basically architectural features on the entryway and uh and you know 10 foot ceilings throughout the entire ground floor, and obviously you need, you know, uh you know, at least two full baths, uh, you know, if not three or four, if not three or four, you know, uh, or at least two fulls and two more halves to go along. And so, you know, even just comparing you know what you would see as being the American dream has gone from dignity, right? Uh dignity in work, dignity in in um your home life. Um, you know, um it's gone from having uh dignity in a place to call your own, and it may be simple, but it is it is mine, to being this thing that now, if you casually reference the American dream today, I feel like most people, or at least most people under the age of 30, think of that American dream as being something like being a YouTuber and you know, rent. I tell you, they're not all owning Lamborghinis, they're renting them, they're renting mansions or whatever else. But like either way, that has kind of crept in as this like big, boisterous 3,000 square foot, you know, 3,500 square foot type of living. Um I think is kind of what people call the American dream these days, right? They wouldn't even reference a ranch style house.

Caleb Schmitt 28:26

I mean the to look at the national averages, um, because that's kind of the second place where I started going. Well, let's look at reality, right? And that's been my biggest move with my book was to kind of move from the emotional side to just uh kind of teaching, right? Which I think is our greatest call, especially in the shed industry, not just as people in the shed industry, but as community members in a place, United States. The fact that me and you are states away, right? Thousands of miles away from each other, and we're talking on a video call. I mean, it's out of the world, right? So, but again, our we often don't see the effects of our actual work, our prices, our morals, what we do in local true economy, because local economy is huge. So, um, yeah, looking at the averages of the average home in the United States, so uh look at the millions of condos and apartments that are small and tight and tiny, and then your average is still a bit over 2,000 square feet. Where does that come from, right? So, when you were saying thirty three thousand thirty-five, no, I know of a lot of guys that have 10 plus thousand square foot homes.

Cord 29:41

Yeah, right.

Caleb Schmitt 29:41

Um and it's just like sure, uh none of it's evil. But again, the what's the purpose of life is kind of a discussion that's back in view. And I realized that was at the base of my entire um emotional side of why this is an issue with me because having a monthly payment till I die kind of bugs me, right? So, how do I get my monthly payments down? And just getting into these thought categories is where I know other people are, right? So, what makes you successful as a salesperson is just trusting your intuition, trusting your gut that you know um what their subconscious is truly yearning, talking about, desiring, right? So, in the affordable housing, that's where I was going with it. Um the idea being a lot broader at this point. So,

A Real Affordable Home Experiment

Caleb Schmitt 30:32

um the item of norms is just wild. So, a year and a half, two years ago, classic, um, we had a couple not too far from the main office that was needing a house really, really bad. Um not well off folks. They were great, great people, right? But they had a tight budget and they were they were finally, they had bought a piece of land, a little lot, um, that was on like a subdivision area that was being created out in the middle of absolute nowhere. Um and beautiful little piece of land, but they were having to settle for getting a double wide pulled on, and it was kind of heartbreaking for them. So, we um I tell you what, and the team members too that worked on this project at Classic. I mean, hats off to each one of them. Um I helped with the drafting and we had everybody, uh, not everybody, but a lot of people, you know, pulling different parts, but um getting prices from contractors and seeing if there's a way we could build an affordable home. Um, and this thing was right below 2,000 square feet. And we turnkeyed it at, I believe it was at 132 or 135 a square foot turnkey. And it blew my mind, right? To me, it was an experiment. I'm crunching numbers the entire time we're going through the build, we get done with the build. Um, I believe the only thing they did if and I might be I might be off just a touch, they painted the interior, so they provided the labor only on the interior paint of this home, right? Is the only part that they had brought to the table. And we were still able to deliver at a hundred bucks less a square foot than your contractors. And I looked at I crunched the numbers, we had still made a decent margin, right? We were still in company profit area, so it was mind-blowing. Um, but there were details like um different bids we had gotten that were up to three times difference in their cost, right? You'd have a plumbing bid that would have 6,000 labor and 6,000 material for super simple, right? All the way up to 36,000. Right. And so how do you, as the public, how do you make this decision? Well, who do I go with? Right? Um, so there's a lot of angles to affordable housing, and I love what you pushed me to here a couple weeks ago when we started talking again. Um what are the solutions? Like, what are the solutions to affordable housing? Um of course on the worst side, I'll flat out say this. There's some areas, just sell your property, move, move away from there, right? Uh there's areas with codes that are just out of this world. Um I'm trying to pull permits for a 20 by 24 for one of our customers. I hope to be customers if we can get the permit pulled. Um, but they want detail to the point that my uh contracted engineer is doesn't know what to do, right? He's like, I've never seen them require something like this, even for like a mansion. So, things are changing. Things are changing very, very quickly. And um how do we stay up with that? I think it's difficulty, but I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like you run into this a bit with the podcast, and being around the shed industry, uh, this is something that people are looking at sheds for living quarters.

AD-CARDINAL MANUFACTURING 34:06

I got a big day tomorrow. I have a fully finished 18 by 40 cabin that's gonna require two to three mules to get it delivered. Way back in the sticks and down a dirt lane. With all the rain we've had lately, it's gonna be a mess. But it needs a bigger mule. Well, when you talk, Cardinal listens and you asked for it. With its diesel-powered 69-horse engine and capacity to move 40,000 pound sheds, the Mule 9069 is ready to turn your big days into just another day in the good life. Ah, that's right. You're talking about the one they had up in Michigan at the shed show. That monster meal, that man, that thing was awesome. That's right. It's the one you've seen at all the shed hauler barbecues. Man, yeah, there's nothing like a little diesel donkey to make my day go so much better.

Cord 35:08

Well,

Sheds, Zoning, And Ethics

Cord 35:09

all the time. I mean, you know, um not as much as you move north and west, um, you know, like Montana, uh, you know, obviously would be a little clear that, although then you get like the cabin people, you know, who are buying the ones that are actually kind of you know cabin sided, you know, and rustic and live in them part-time, you know, on the lake. Um, but that's kind of a an old tradition. But no, you're absolutely right. And really, you know, what made me kind of reach out and really to connect this concept, you know, to the shed industry is we I feel like we are seeing a lot of down, what I would call down market slippage, right? So, you see people who previously would have been thinking about um a garage, you know, a uh a standard uh you know slab uh you know, stick built garage, right? Even possibly temperature controlled. I mean, these things are not, you know, these are not crazy things. Like these are these are things that um were fairly common, you know, even 30 years ago um when my dad was building houses. And so, you know, what I think we're experiencing is um, you know, there's a ton of price competitiveness right now, you know, out there in the country. Uh a lot of a lot of price shoppers, a lot of price competitiveness. Of course, that comes in just as a natural subset of people's finances being in a place where they just have to be price conscious, even if they, you know, a lot of people would I've everyone prefers that the service, the experience, everything else be top notch. And that and everyone wants to shop that way. I mean, everybody. Nobody doesn't want to get treated like they're the most important customer. Um, and that certainly is still the way to treat your customers. But just the reality is um price competitiveness is out there, discount culture is out there, and you know, so you kind of see that that middle tier shed, you know, getting crunched, you know, under the weight of that price competitiveness and the margins slipping. But then we also see um, gosh, we're selling a bunch of really, really big, nice sheds. Um, you know, and so, you know, I think the dynamic turns into, well, we sold less units, um, but we made more money, you know, uh uh over the course of the year, which is great. And there's nothing wrong with shifting to where the market is. But I think the realization is that there's some down market slippage where the shed industry is 100%, you know, filling in for what at one point would have been uh you know the housing industry. Um, you know, whether that be uh, you know, actual manufactured homes and trailers, or whether that be stick-built garages and whatever else, um, you know, it felt like that to me. And so, you know, that really resonated. And of course, you're in the shed and the home and at classic, you guys do a little bit of everything. So, that really sparked off our conversation. But, you know, I think there is a um well, the challenges. Um speaking of zoning and everything like that, I mean, you know, now there are even deeper challenges within the industry where you're really having to decide. It's always been a problem in some places that you know good and well whenever that shed goes out the door that somebody's gonna live in it. Um that is happening more and more. Um, and it's happening in more places, it's happening not just in the south anymore, but it's happening everywhere. And so, I think there's a lot of moral um, you know, a lot of uh soul searching that a lot of companies are doing out there right now where they're saying, you know, are we officially going to uh partake in more of this uh um more of the codes? Are we gonna have a licensed plumber come in? Are we gonna have a licensed electrician come in? Are we gonna do full finish out? Or are we just gonna rough it into the studs, but we're gonna do it to uh you know, whatever your state's standard is, and then you can actually then go in and drywall it or put whatever floor in. But I mean, I think everybody, even the big, even the big companies, you know, who have been committed to just selling a box, basically, for years and years, I think everybody's mindset is floating into that space. And, you know, I think some of the same moral dilemmas that you kind of raise more broadly about culture, then also kind of wind up right in your face whenever you're deciding, you know, are we gonna rough this stuff in? If we rough it in in this state and we take it across state lines, whose problem is it? Because our state inspect, we don't have to get it inspected, right? It's not staying in our state. Are we putting it on the customer? Are we in good faith saying that we actually believe the customer is going to contact, you know, their local? Do we care if they do? I mean, all these are like relevant questions, you know, and so I think that kind of really sparked off me and you being able to connect on some of these very uh closely related, even if they're not directly in line. Um, so, what is your I know when we had been talking, you know, just chatting with each other, you had kind of even brought in, you know, what is the moral imperative of everyone in that line, right? When you talk about a hundred and thirty-five dollar per square foot house, what is the moral imperative of uh the bank? What is the moral imperative of the subcontractor? You know, um what are your thoughts on that?

Caleb Schmitt 41:10

So, great question, by the way. Great question. And it is kind of a soul searching question in some ways, right? Um me the way I was raised, and I have some great folks in business that I've looked up to. I've been fortunate enough to have some great mentors and great people in my life, and some of this has changed a little bit as well, but um answering that for ourselves personally is important, and I mean that from the deepest part of my heart. Um there is some money hungry craze in the country right now, especially for um young men like myself that uh want wealth, right? Want money. Um and the sad thing I've seen over and over where contractors are not true masters at what they do, still ask a thousand questions, still are confused about what they're done. And of course, they often they need somebody to throw under the bus when they're done with the job and they didn't make as much money or whatever, but at the same time, those same guys um are looking to make slightly out of realistic amounts of money on projects. And I say that wholeheartedly to say this. I'm not uh I'm not against making money in in no regard. Um but if we are called to help the homeless, and that list goes on and on and on, right? We need to accept, we need to look at what are communities and how this affects local lives. So, one thing I found interesting in my own life is I don't like this American dream demand where uh husband and wife have to both have degrees, have to both have student debt, work careers every day, um, your kid gets babysat, you have a few planned vacations a year. I don't think God made us to live that way. And I find this that belief system itself is very broad and a lot of good people around that belief system. But when it comes to implementing our own lives in a way that we support that, and what I mean by that is if we're charging twice as much labor or three times as much labor as just because we can and the industry is busy and the banks loan it and the values are crazy right now, we're still partaking in pushing that couple to have to work at that extent, right? We're partaking it. And when you live in a small community, I've noticed this happen firsthand down the road, right? It's way more real than many of us have ever thought. I was raised in in a very religious setting with this whole idea. And oftentimes I would not have known this all existed unless I engaged in some community efforts more, right? So, helping with handing out clothes and helping with uh maintaining stuff, um, being part of a little farmer's market that our town puts on. And those things start opening your eyes very, very quickly at how um blessed some of us are. We truly are. Um, it's out of this world how absolutely lucky we are on this whole regard. So the moral, the moral side of it to me is not that we can't make money as companies, but we need to handle it well, we need to handle it correctly. I see abuse on this side in the um contractor side significantly more than the shed side by uh by a long shot. Um and I see um homeowners that are trying to self-GC pay the price, um, sometimes because they don't know as much about you know self-GCing a house. Um but essentially they end up paying the price. And uh even with the I'm building a house myself right now, even with that project, um, getting bids that are two and three times the price of another bid, there is an actual place that extra $10,000, $20,000, $40,000 goes, right? And where is it going? Sometimes it's company mismanagement, sometimes it's high overhead, poorly built companies. Um, sometimes the lowest bid, uh, those are not often, but often if you have a guy that doesn't show up anymore, um, it's because he underbid it, right? So, that extra three times he has to come back to um fix a punch list, he doesn't have the daily income for that. So, there is both sides of the coin at the same time. I've seen some exponential abuse, and you have some very wealthy people around the community, and then to learn that the community as a whole um has a disdain and a distaste for people that essentially just because you're the one person in a town who's good at um one specific trade doesn't mean you can abuse what you charge to the people. So care. That's my one word. If I could leave it with people, care. Care about people around you, care about your neighbor, care about somebody else. Um, because we were not made to simply sweat and pay a bill every single month. So, um that's kind of my the moral aspect of where I come from with this is let's make sure we ourselves are in check to a degree and move on past that uh that that portion of it.

Fair Pricing, Competition, And Codes

Cord 46:34

Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say that thankfully, I mean, a big a big part of that side of it is just the actual capitalistic competition side, yeah, and so you know the um rural America um has just absolutely been emptied out, you know, over the course of this last generation of talent. And you know, I will say, you know, I'm 35 years old. And so, I think I was right in the heart of that, you know, 2015 to 20 year uh cohort of a generation that was moving through that was really being told. And you know, I'm not going to I think most of it was good intentions. Whenever you're you know, the 90s, you know, you're seeing the buildup of what winds up being the dot com bubble, of course, but like you're seeing this this ramp up of a technology that is increasing productivity, that is uh, you know, increasing the product, uh, the profitability, you know, of American companies. And, you know, I think there was this thought process. I was like, gosh, you know, we need as many people into uh into colleges and universities, we need as many people who are able to operate these uh you know computer systems and be on that sort of management or IT side and things like that, that you know, really and truly, I do I was a part of that, right? Um and I did it. You know, I went through high school, went to uh now I went to two years- worth of community college, which thankfully saved me on the financial side. Um, but then I went off and finished, you know, two years at uh a state school, Murry State University. But, you know, I was very much a part of what was being presented, you know, to kids and young people uh about higher education and about you know what life looks like. I will say, thankfully, um, you know, as my kids have now, you know, come through that same system, you do see a marked, uh marked, you know, shift to where it is now. I mean, the uh in fact the community college um here in Massac County uh now has a wing of the school where they are holding uh you know welding classes and construction classes, not just for the high school kids, but then are doing uh um night classes out of the high school building, you know, for re-education, basically, uh, you know, of other community members. And so, you know, I think it's correcting itself. And I am still hopeful that competition, um, it may not be a lot of competition. We're talking about small places, small towns, but you need to have two or three plumbers. You need to have two or three electricians, you need to have probably five or six, you know, GCs and you know, kind of house builder type of people because it keeps everybody honest. Um, you know, and I remember the days. I mean, heck, my dad was my dad and my uncles, they were home builders, uh, Coch Brothers Construction. Um, and they were middle class guys, right? Like, you know, they built the what is still today, you know, probably the nicest subdivision, Diamond Lake over here by the country club, um, and built it fair and built it honest, and were middle class guys. Um, you know, and I think there's just uh sort of to what you're saying, competition starts to fade a little bit, and then you have, you know, some companies that grow exponentially, um, and before you know it, the prospective homeowner no longer has a choice of a good quality, low-cost option. That was another point that you were you were kind of making there, which is you know, high price does not mean you're getting three times the quality. Um it just doesn't, right?

Caleb Schmitt 50:46

Not to pay for a hundred thousand dollar new pickup every two years that you see a two-man construction crew run. It's like all right, so an extra thousand bucks a week, two hundred bucks a day, has to go straight to just the depreciation alone, not everything else. But I like the point you're making because in the broader in the broader spectrum of it, uh, this kind of ties back into a previous point. I gotta share this. When I was seven, my folks did a small addition to a home because I was seven, I had three siblings, and we lived in a 900 square foot house. All right. Yeah. Uh it worked perfectly fine. But we added a small portion to this for another bedroom. Um, and I remember the term because I heard it, they were talking about it a number of times, peer and beam, peer and beam, peer and beam. And I'm like, I don't know what this means. So, then I grow up. Now, I'm now I know what that means, but it's not really legal anymore. And very few people know it because banks don't want a loan for a peer and beam built building, right? It's the kind of the same principle as like a house trailer, right? It has beams, you set it on blocks, or you pour piers, or you pour a footing, put blocks on the footing, right? There's a number of different ways to kind of go about it, but now they want crawl spaces or they want a full um slab foundation. And so the requirements just keep going up. Um the ability to finish out garages, some areas are still allowing you to finish out your two-car garage. So, if you have enough money just to pay someone to put up the shell, shingle it, put siding on it, put a garage door in it, that's great. Um, not all areas are letting that anymore. Some won't write sign off on it until it's finished out. It has approved electrical, approved um side right interior siding. Interior might even be painted depending on who your inspector is. So the level of expectation or requirements go up. And a lot of people, as well, sometimes I come at this idea of, well, this is what the government wants. We need to do this. It's not that simple. Once you're in it and you've worked in it for long enough, you realize it's actually not that simple. It's levels of people believe this is safe and that's safe. Stacked on top of the IRC code. And I encourage every single person, go look up what the IRC code is and why they're enforcing it. A lot of states took bailout money in 08, and part of the program was that if you want bailout money, you start enforcing this code that's not even written in the United States. So there's a lot of overbuild happening that's also costing us, that's not quite choice, right? So um that's one thing I no longer wrestle with the idea of, well, if that state doesn't inspect it and they don't require this, can I just ship my building there? I do now, right? I happily do so because I understand that the goal is not any longer just to build safe buildings. Uh, the goal has changed to kind of require a level of um comparison, kind of. Because I uh personally I'm not even sure what we're going for as a nation. I don't even know.

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Cord 55:14

And if we're being if we're being honest, I mean, you know, whenever you actually get down to how the sausage gets made or whatever else, I mean, I think at this point, um, most people, you know, most of our listeners um are realistic enough about, you know, not in all cases. Some things are legitimate, uh, legitimate safety reasons. They are they are truly life-preserving, right? But we can also be honest enough to say, and a lot of codes are built to uh to um guarantee a certain amount of market to a certain type of product or to a certain type of production uh or to something that like serves some other purpose. Very likely someone who lobbied really hard. Right. And so, you know, like we can be honest about like what of these regulations are truly meant to protect the consumer, protect life, make sure that things are not dangerous, uh, you know, or overtly dangerous in a way that that actually threatens people. Um, but we can also be honest enough to say, but you know, a lot of a lot of uh codes are put in place because someone benefits, right? And I think that's sort of you know what we're getting around to here as well. And so, I guess maybe I mean I think that that you and I uh you know could talk about this, and honestly, we need to probably do a series of episodes, but I guess maybe you know to bring this full circle, I think that both of us have a passion for, and as does Shannon. I mean, this is what the Shed Geek podcast um was built on, um has a passion for teaching, and I think both of us kind of believe that it really is a matter of informing, truly. I mean, genuinely. Like this isn't a sales pitch, right? This is me telling you what is necessary, what things are avoidable, uh, what materials will make this a hundred and thirty-five uh dollar a square foot house, what your bathroom is gonna look like, you know, and like but it's yours. It's your bathroom, you know, it's gonna be yours. It may not have uh marble and brass and whatever else, but like it's gonna be yours. So, maybe a good way to wrap this and one of the things that is most practical, because we're getting into some big, big, you know, uh uh heavy issues, but like how do you approach that that um informational or teaching piece with your customer? Because I think at the end of the day, that the information, the awareness is what is going to really make a groundswell, you know, ground level difference in people's lives.

Teaching Customers And Book Preview

Caleb Schmitt 58:22

So, I like where you're coming out with this, and I think this ties back to something you said earlier about a comment I made about separating shelter comfort and luxury, right? So, first step, of course, is to become knowledgeable yourself. Um understand why things cost what they do that are you know inherently expensive or high cost, but show that openness to your customer. Um when I have a little boy, he's four. When he comes to me and I don't take his emotion and then kind of step into his emotion myself, I'm his dad, right? So, I can guide him. He comes to me and he's upset or he's scared. I'm not gonna become upset or scared with him, right? I'm gonna go, hey, what's up? And then I can maybe ask him some questions, get out, you know, what's going on, or I can give some direction or encouragement, depending on what's needed, but I don't become emotionally controlled with that. I think often we need to realize that in the in the sales world with the shed industry, with the housing industry, whichever part we find ourselves in, is again, customers often, by the time they're coming to talk to us, especially in the situation where they want living quarters, they're often in an emotional state because it's scaring them, right? The last thing they want to hear is I can't build my dream, I can't get rid of my payments, I can't, I can't fulfill what I've always wanted to do, I can't get reach that level of freedom I want. So don't get on their level with emotion, right? Show that it's doable. But in order to show that it's truly doable, you have to subconsciously believe that it's doable. So learn. Learn so that you can teach. Um learn about the costs, learn about the facts of housing. Um I compiled a full list, and this one reason why I got to the idea of reading, writing the book. Uh, the book, at least the current potential title, is the last 50 years. But the book doesn't necessarily have a goal of getting you to do X, Y, or Z, but it's the goal is to open people's eyes, right? To teach, to show. Simply talk about it. Um, because if you build a 1970s home today, it's cheaper than it with than the inflation dollars would have cost in 1975. So learn and teach, and then encourage your customer to do to do so, right? And make sure that people understand the emotional journey that they will face in reaching their goals in their life of whether it's affordable housing, owning their own home, building part of their own home, or self-GCing, whatever that looks like with that shed structure, um, go beyond. Um, and that can only be done if you understand a bit. So um it's hard for me to listen to a podcast or watch a YouTube video if it's not something that I'm like very much fired up about. But force yourself to go find the videos, go find the podcast, go find the books, and do something that's outside of your comfort zone just to learn about uh how boards get cut, um, how they end up, where you're at. Um, gypsum board, right? Like the true origins of a lot of place, why one trim board is so much more expensive two towns over, it's dirt cheap, right? Well, why is it dirt cheap here and not there? And there's answers to so many things out there, but the more knowledgeable you become on the simplicity of what's needed to build and how to self-GC, um the more it helps you sell a shed structure that they can use. And even get the nerve to go find out what the city's looking for, right? What are the IRC codes? Because chances are if you especially if you sell for like a higher quality shed company like ours, chances are you can put that shed on top of a crawl space and it will be a hundred percent um covered by that construction loan. Perfectly fine, perfectly happy. Um, but again, you got to do your research, you have to know what they're looking for, what they're not looking for, and simply take that and face the world with the idea that we can, we might not be able to accomplish it for the entire world like I'd want to, right? But we can accomplish it for maybe our local community, our customers, and help them get to where they want to go with the livability situation.

Cord 1:03:08

Well, that's hey, that's good word right there. And with all the all the listeners of the podcast, um, you know, if everyone were able to make that kind of impact in their own community, um, then we're really making some progress, right? So I think the obvious question here, Caleb, is uh what is the expectation for uh um the last 50 years for the book?

Caleb Schmitt 1:03:34

Well, it's still undergoing review at this point. Uh, I do have somebody else going through it and doing some markups. So, I'm gonna say, I mean, it'll probably be in a year from now that it will be published, but I am heading that way. It is in its final draft stages at this point, so it could be before then. Um, my wife, who has zero interest in listening to me talk about this stuff, um, did finish all of the last two chapters in one sitting only because Dakota, my son, had to uh got her attention, needed some help with something. Right. So that blew my mind. And I asked her, she at first asked, well, what's the point? I was like, the point is just now you know. And there's less um, can I say worry or frustration in her step because the more you know, the less, the less fear you have in your life. And we do live in uncertain times to a degree, right? So um the more knowledge you have, the better off you are on that subject.

Cord 1:04:37

Well, I am I am anxiously awaiting. You can go ahead and pencil me in as a as a uh uh whatever first uh first run uh first run of publication. Uh I definitely want one of those. And um you'll certainly have to come back and continue this conversation um, you know, and uh even sooner than a year from now. But I look forward to having a podcast where I can end and say, and go here to this link, go to this website and uh pre-order one of Caleb's uh the last 50 years uh uh you know of affordability and construction in America books or whatever the title winds up being. So um let's be sure, let's be sure to do that um because I think this is uh a conversation that is prescient for the industry, um, you know, and that is um that's relevant for um the times we're in, uh, you know, and the type of people that we want to be um, you know, in those times. Um, you know, and so um very much have enjoyed talking with you today, Caleb. Uh, and if you will humbly uh um, you know, uh take the request to come back on, um, let's not wait a whole year. Um, you know, let's uh let's jump back on in the winter um you know and see how the year went and then see how uh what you're what you're looking at and planning for um you know next year and maybe the book will be on a little bit faster track than what you think, and maybe we can even talk about that too. How about that?

Caleb Schmitt 1:06:14

That sounds good. Absolutely. Appreciate you, Cord. Uh, thanks for reaching out. You reached out quite a while ago originally, um, but uh no, it's been an incredible discussion. I think it's something we need to talk about more. Um, familiar side, you know, become familiar with it. And um, it's one of those things where I see it as well, kind of my standards for being a dad. Um, I like to keep them as high as possible. And I see this as something that I've faced with uncertainty and fear and a lot of regard. And so, I don't want my son to view it that way, right? So, talking about this is important. Let's definitely get back together again. Um, yeah, appreciate it, Cord. Absolutely.

Cord 1:06:57

Thank you so much. Thank you for listening, and join us again on another episode of the Shed Geek Podcast.

OUTRO 1:07:05

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