Back To Basics

Your lot can be busy and your growth can still stall and the cause is usually not “lack of demand.” It’s the small cracks underneath: missed calls, weak follow-up, stores that are not truly staffed, handoffs that confuse customers, and a culture that silently tolerates behavior that drives buyers away. I sit down with Jonathan Ulrich of Ulrich Structures to talk about what it really looks like to get back to the basics in the shed industry while the world races toward AI, online checkout, and agent-driven buying. 

We dig into why AI is here to stay, how it will reshape search and ecommerce, and why none of it matters if we forget the end user. Jonathan keeps bringing it back to “Sally,” the real customer with real needs, dreams, and expectations. A shed is rarely just a 10x12. It’s often a family story, a life change, or an emotional problem someone is trying to solve. When we sell with empathy and deliver with consistency, we earn the most effective marketing there is: referrals and five-star reviews. 

We also get practical about leadership and culture. Jonathan shares a simple definition that hits hard: culture is the lowest behavior tolerated. If we allow late openings, unanswered phones, disrespect, or excuses, that becomes the standard. We talk NPS for employees and customers, mid-project feedback loops, and why “gemba” leadership (going to where the work happens) beats conference-room slide decks every time. 

If you want a stronger shed sales process, better customer experience, and a team that executes, this conversation will challenge you in the best way. Subscribe, share this with your team, and leave a review so more builders, dealers, and manufacturers can find it.

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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Pro

Pittsburgh Paints
Cardinal Leasing
iFAB
Identigrow
Solar Blaster

Transcript

INTRO 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek Podcast. A quick word about our studio sponsor. One thing the team at Shed Pro has been hearing lately or from Shed businesses is that many of them aren't struggling because of lack of demand. Things just kind of fit all out. The lot is busy, but growth flattens. And it's not always obvious why. Usually it's something small. The website, the follow-up, how customers interact with you before they ever pick up the phone. So Shed Pro puts something together called the Shed Sales Audit. It helps you get a clearer picture of where you might be losing people. It takes a couple of minutes. And if you want to dig deeper, their team will walk you through it. Here's the thing nine times out of ten, the fix isn't more leads, it's a tighter operation underneath. That's the rest of the Shed Pro platform. Configurator, point of sale, RTO contracts, inventory, deliveries, and dealer tools are all in one place. From website lead to final delivery, one clean workflow. Start with the audit at shedpro.co forward slash shed geek. Thank you, Shed Pro, for being our Wednesday studio sponsor and for building something that helps the industry.

Welcome Back And Ways To Connect

Shannon 1:16

Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek Podcast here in Sunny Metropolis, Illinois. Today I am joined by a industry favorite and a show favorite. Um we I almost want to say Justin just because there's just such a long-running joke. Uh, you know, but uh of course it's Jonathan Ulrich here today of Ulrich Structures. And before we get rolling, just a few ways to stay plugged in with us. Uh give me a call at 618-309-3648. Uh, give us an email over here, shoot us an email info, INFO@ shedgeek.com, or go check out our website at www.shedgeek.com, our Facebook page, give us a like, we'll do the same. Check out the Shed Sales Professionals group where a lot of professionals get together and exchange information regularly that helps the industry. And for our call-in landline, our playing community friends, uh, give them uh give them uh this number if they want to listen, 330-997-3055.

First Impressions Through Color Strategy

Shannon 2:13

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Jonathan Returns And Reenters Operations

Shannon 3:54

Welcome back, Jonathan. After all of that uh uh conversation, give you a chance to speak, man, because the audience always likes you. It's always great numbers on our podcast whenever you're joining us. I think a lot of people appreciate your business and insight. And I'm just curious, here we are in year six, man. You've been uh, I don't know, on here three or four times and a show favorite. What have you been up to? What's going on with uh Ulrich Structures? What's happening with the shed industry, man?

Jonthan Ulrich 4:24

That's a lot of questions in one question.

Shannon 4:27

I'm sorry, notorious for this.

Jonthan Ulrich 4:30

Janet, it's great to be back on the podcast. And uh gosh, life has been busy the last uh two or three years. Um personally, I had a lot going on. Um, you know, was quite distracted from the industry and from the company. Um had some personal emergencies I had to attend to, and it took a lot longer than expected, but uh here we are alive and well on the other side of it. So, um I'm personally you know re-engaging with uh the industry. Um I actually I'll tell you how bought in and invested I am. Um I recently parted ways about eight months ago, I guess, with my uh president. So, um I am back and leading the company uh not just as visionary or CEO, but also day-to-day and operations as our president. So, um I am plugged in and you know, attending factory huddles and walking factory floors and stores. And uh it's just good to be back connected with the industry that I've been in now for gosh, I guess, you know, since I dropped out of high school, 22, 23 years. Um so it's good to be back. And I love would love to, you know, pick your brain and share my thoughts on what I see in the industry and what I think we need to get back to as an industry and really getting back to the basics.

Shannon 5:54

I love it. It's uh it's a good topic back to the basics when I think about leaders like yourself that have uh paved the way for opportunities for folks like us to just be here and learn more from the things you've done. I go back to you know some of my roots of like um reading your blogs in on the on the NSRA back then the N S Bra, however it was, uh I would go to their website and I remember always read your blogs, like some of the things that you put out. And at least I say it was yours. I think they might have uh gone unnamed, but I always felt like they were yours. Uh because after talking to you, I was like, man, that dude's just sharp. And I owe you a personal thank you, just as like, you know, you've been so just kind and supportive and willing to not only come on the podcast, but sharing some of your experiences and knowledge over the years. And it's helped me both. Uh I think I said this off the air, I enjoy both the personal conversation with you and the podcast and business conversation. Uh, but just a just a stand-up guy, stellar individual, someone I have learned from. And uh I'm curious, what does you know, being back in the in the saddle and being back to the basics, what does that mean for you?

Jonthan Ulrich 7:09

Well, Shannon, first thank you for um, you know, it takes all sorts of different channels to really bring the industry together. One thing I've enjoyed seeing over the past 10 years is the collaboration that's happening via the Shed Expo, um, the magazine, and then this podcast. Um, I think it just you know really helps us as business owners and leaders in the industry, uh, where whatever your position may be, to stop and realize we all we are all in the same boat at the end of the day. We're all in the same industry. And yes, while you know we may or may not compete um in a particular market or on a particular product, we are all in the same boat. And so, it's you know a great opportunity. And I think part of that has just been the podcast, right? Really opening our eyes to, hey, we can talk to each other, we can we can have a conversation. And I'm sure there have been thousands of conversations that have happened that would not have otherwise happened um due to your work. So thank you for that.

Shannon 8:18

Just uh for you being back in the saddle, I'm curious at what you know, you said, you know, here I am in the corridors of the of the shed manufacturing halls and visiting the dealer lots and you know, really, really taking, you know, like that hands-on approach back to Ulrich structures. What do you feel like back to the basics looks like for you? And what does it look like for the industry?

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AI Is Here But Basics Win

Jonthan Ulrich 9:46

Yeah, so I would say um a lot, a lot we could talk about, but it's a very interesting dynamic time that we live in because we have AI, and you know, AI is no longer the future. AI is here. Um, a friend of mine just did a deal with Google for, you know, over a billion dollars on a on a data center. Um, I mean, it's these deals are happening right and left. Uh, there are some early, early folks in data centers who are now going bankrupt, but there's plenty of more that are going to stay. I mean, it's like any it's like any um startup industry, but this is this is real. I mean, these deals are being built. Obviously, AI already exists. Uh, you have you know the impact of that to the industry: AI voice, um, AI, uh, agentic AI. Uh you've got AI buying your ads. You've got, you know, think about a camera being installed at the factory to do your intake of raw materials coming in and watching your sheds roll through the factory line, um, cameras to analyze and really help the frontline sales team be more um productive and efficient and effective. Um, AI analyzing all your voice calls. I mean, there's a lot of things that we could do. And it's really impactful because if you think about the internet, when it came in, um, obviously AI like the internet, like the cell phone. You know, people thought it was the mark of the beast, or they thought it's going to take everybody's jobs, or they thought this and they thought that. At the end of the day, it's here to stay, it's gonna stay. What's unique about AI is that um we really are taking the internet, the cell phone, combining it together in one event, compressed significantly on timeline. And you know, there, I don't think there's any way to truly measure it, but I think it's very safe to say 10x the impact of both the internet and the and the and the iPhone combined, um, maybe closer to 100x. Uh, maybe I'm thinking small it's even more than that. So, how's that going to impact us all? That's a topic for a different conversation. Back to the basics is really what I'm focused on. And yes, we're have been early adopters and continue to try to be leading edge on AI and all these different tools, but it really does come back to the basics. And so for me, um, I have, you know, we have moved our headquarters back to one of our factories. Um, I personally don't have a I'm in a in a conference room right now. I personally do not have an office um anywhere. I have a I have a stand-up desk on the ops floor. I have a stand-up desk in the sales floor, and uh a small corner I can use in the administration office. And I try to split my time, um, spending most of my time on the sales floor and the and the ops floor, but really just plugged in, seeing what our what are our frontline uh team members facing, whether it's sales at our retail stores, um, online sales, whether it's large structures, whether it's sheds, um, or our operations teams. You know, what is what is changed and unique and permitting and engineering and you know, customer expectations for, you know, I remember the days when we'd pull in a customer's yard with a Ford or a Dodge and a 20-foot trailer, and you'd make ruts all over the yard. And you know, now uh that's a very, very different technology that we use settle over sheds, and customers' expectations have changed with that as well. And so, you know, customers are demanding more and more than ever, but it really does come back to the basics. So, to answer your question, you know, I'm telling you basically how I'm plugged in and how it's changed my behavior, but it really does come back to culture, RPRS, your right people in the right seats, and serving our customers. If we don't have a customer first mentality, all these tools will not help us because we're if we're not ultimately serving customers, no AI tool is going to help you solve that problem. No, yeah, no AI tool is going to replace it. At the end of the day, humans doing business with humans.

Shannon 13:58

You can you can just simply never replace like the foundation. Like all the only thing you really do is build on top of it. And there's a couple of things I jotted down, you know, AI misunderstood. Um, I mean, like I say this all the time, and perhaps I received even fair criticism uh for my opinion on this. But I think that if you are taking a strong uh strong opinion or drawing a conclusion or making an argument, you're obviously going to have some people who disagree. But, you know, in in what I like to call an otherwise, you know, easily recognizably uh conservative industry, though those things in conservative nature bleed over into other things, your politics and your faith and different things like that. And I always make the joke that you know, as a as a large, you know, conservative base, we usually criticize what we don't understand, right? It's it may be some ego, it may be just you know who knows, but it's human behavior. Human behavior, yeah. If I don't understand it, it's easier to say it doesn't make sense, it'll never work. The reality is I I've watched this uh with my in-laws. I like to tease them about it. You know, at one point it was like, why would anyone want a home computer? And then they got one and they love it, right? Why would anyone want the internet and then they use it and they love it? Why would anyone want AI and they're beginning to gravitate? But I think you know, it's fair to be just uh, you know, uh I don't know what the word I'm looking for here is like almost agnostic on the that that approach. It's kind of like I don't know, so I'm gonna go with the benefit of it. Probably doesn't work and it's ruining our lives. And I'm like, hey, listen, just like anything else, you know, a tool can be used for good and it can be used for bad. Uh, you know, go back to the basics.

Jonthan Ulrich 15:44

And that's exactly right. I mean, I think I think at the end of at the end of the day, we have to all these things are simply tools, right? All these sim are simply tools like a like a nail gun or a computer or the internet or AI. These are all tools that ultimately help us solve, but we have to keep the end game in mind. And you know, for a retail focused industry, that is the end user consumer. You take the best, you know, you and I could talk about who we think the best competitor in the industry is. The moment they stop selling to real humans and backyards, they're no longer the best. I'm no longer the best, right? Um, and mighty companies, you know, you are our two largest competitors in the industry. I mean, they're 600 million, 800 million dollars. Um, and those two competitors only get there by serving one customer at a time, day in and day out. And the moment we forget that, I think we start losing our way. And I'll I will tell you, um, at Ulrich, we lost our way a bit. I mean, I was I stepped away from the business uh for a couple of years, and we as a company lost our way and really focusing on those, because I was still engaged in the business on big picture and you know, sort of visionary ideas, but the day-to-day operations of the business sort of lost focus on who we're serving and what we're doing and why we're doing it. And you know, for us, for you, it may be something different as a shed company that's listening. For us, it's to help families live more memorable lives. At the end of the day, our job is to dig deep and to really find out the true why that this customer walked into one of our stores or came in through our website and then serve that customer and really solve that. At the end of the day, you know, they don't walk into our stores looking for a piece of paper with a price on it. That doesn't help them. That doesn't help them live a more memorable life. They're not looking for a follow-up call, they're not looking for a quote. They have a need that they're trying to serve and oftentimes it's deeply emotional. Uh, and we've got to dig a bit to be able to find that. But if we can solve that problem and really bring a solution that that helps them look like a hero to their family uh because they truly are, and they solve that uh need, it it really does. That's where the rubber meets the road. That's where the impact is.

The Real Reason Customers Buy

Shannon 18:09

Man, what a what a great statement. Helping helping families live better lives. Is that what you said?

Jonthan Ulrich 18:15

Helping families live more memorable lives. More memorable lives. I mean, just uh often we think in the industry of a good bread and butter 10 by 12, right? Um, 10 by 12 utility shed or gable shed. But at the end of the day, why are they buying that shed? And oftentimes it's to clean out a spare room. Why are they cleaning out the spare room? Well, because grandma just got diagnosed with cancer, and so my you know, my music room needs to move out to a shed in the backyard because grandma's gonna come spend the last six months of her life with her family as she goes through you know palliative care for end of life.

Shannon 18:52

We had that we had that situation happen one time where somebody came on. We didn't sell them a shed. This is uh I always you know want to say that because like people are like, oh, and then you sold them a shed and everybody lived happily ever after. And I was like, no, it they came on and the lady was looking for a shed because her son had passed away. Husband couldn't quite bring himself to like remove the stuff from the bedroom. They didn't want to get rid of anything, so she's on the task of coming out. And as she's explaining it to us, she just breaks down crying. And we did, you know, we did all the right things, you know. We consult her, we prayed for her, and we sent her on her way. We didn't, we certainly didn't try hard to sell uh, you know, a shed by any means. We were just trying to be there. And like if that would have turned into a cell, that would have been great, you know, just from a pure financial perspective, but from a emotional uh uh from an emotionally uh uh beneficial standpoint, I remember it more than I remember some of my biggest sheds I ever sold because it reminded me that I'm helping people at the end of the day. And the thing is, Jonathan, like retail in other industries already does all these things, whether it's AI, I wanted to touch on online sales because you mentioned that. And that online sales has been floating around for what, six years, seven years now? Like, you know, really talking about online. I can remember my first call with Irvin, Stutzman of Summit Portable Buildings there in Farmington, when he was asking, we were competitors. I ended up working for him, and he asked me, Hey man, how's Facebook working out for you? We're selling tons of buildings by just listing them on Facebook. I can remember when that happened. Well, it was just like, what? You're listing buildings on Facebook? Like, who's listing buildings on Facebook for sale? And now you think about where it's come full circle. Um, I mean, that's how much technology has changed in 10 years.

Jonthan Ulrich 20:43

Yep.

Shannon 20:44

Like, what's it gonna look like in 10 more? I mean, we're back to the basics on this conversation, but are those basics changing? Like, does technology now become so infiltrated in the basics that you almost have to have some level of digital IQ to be a shed seller or a shed hauler or a shed manufacturer?

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Online Sales And The Web’s Next Shift

Jonthan Ulrich 22:24

You know what's interesting? You mentioned you mentioned selling and what's going to change, selling on Facebook and what's going to change. I was just with the um the CEO of um Shopify. And I think as an industry, we really haven't even completely taken advantage of and adopted WWW, right? Um, and you know, if you look at Shopify, they've built their entire business model, entire business model on the web page, on the web. And they believe that within three to five years, the web goes completely extinct. Um it will not it will not live in the sh in the shape or um form that it we currently are. And so um, you know, if you look at and I'll tell you, my it's funny because I hear all these things and I come home and um watch my 13-year-old daughter, and she's literally doing exactly what we're talking about the future being um, you know, buying bedroom furniture on Amazon and um she shops, she does all of her shopping or you know, gets me to buy stuff for, but everything that she does is through an AI agent, whether it's chat or one of the other models, chat GPT or one of the other models. And and that's you know, Shopify is building out their self-checkout now for um chat GPT and Claude and et cetera, because people are going to interface exclusively through there rather than going out to the web and using Google to Google everything. It saves so much time, it does so much research for you. You can help to take on a persona. So, this is just a personal application of it, but what's the impact that has on the industry? But yeah, I bring us back to basics, right? At the end of the day, selling a shed through Chat GPT um is nothing more than just staying adapted with the latest Dewalt tool, right? Or the latest, you know, delivery technology. It's just another tool, it's another piece of technology. But what are we truly doing? We're listening to the customer and finding out how they want to buy and do business with us and adapting to that. That's all it's all it is. It's very simple, actually, at the end of the day.

Shannon 24:34

Yeah, we I mean, I probably beat this drum. Excuse me, goodness. I probably beat this drum too much, but like we're not exempt from the way retail business works. Uh, whether it's Shopify, you know, the Google Merchant Center, you know, we've been we've been really, really, really focused here lately very heavily on some of the more key components of the marketing that we offer, you know, website, SEO, Google Ads, beta ads, you know, like we've kind of farmed out or collaborated with or worked with some people who do other things, obviously proud of our sponsor, Shed Pro, you know, and like what they've done, you know, in the in the configurator space, you know, Joe Ignis over at Velocity360. Interviewed him three years ago, and we talked about sales and like who knew that this relationship. And I'm gonna tell you, you should, you know, there's some sleeper episodes in there. You should go back and listen to a couple of those episodes that uh a couple of guests that we've had on that were working in the background to have those conversations like Joe that are eventually going to come to fruition, we think, uh, and they're gonna be able to help the industry with some of those online tools. So, when we talk about, you know, when we talk about basics and what you're doing, we're not exempt from other areas of retail. Other areas have started doing these things, Google Merchant Center. Uh, you know, I mean, you saw some of like the attempts at online sales already in the industry, like the subscription models. You know what I mean? Shed Hub, Sheds for Sale. I mean, I think Jason's got something going on over at Shed Suite. Uh, there's a lot of new marketing tools that are coming to the table. We've been focusing on, you know, educating people because like we we believe that like even if some of our competition wins out as we educate, that's okay because the industry gets stronger to your earlier point. Uh anyway, so like we're a fan of uh educating people and like focusing on what those online things do because we're just not uh we're not going to be able to outrun what the retail market's doing in the world and like how it affects our small area, whether it's sheds, chicken coops, or whatever. So, I'm not sure that there's a question in there, but curious your thoughts anyway.

Jonthan Ulrich 26:44

Yeah, like I said, I mean I think I think it comes down to keeping that end user customer, Sally, um whatever, whatever you name your customer persona, what is the what does how does she want to be served? What is important to her? What is what how does she buy today? And finding that most, I mean if you look at the shed industry over the past 50, 60 years, the shed styles have completely changed. Okay. Um, purchase options have completely changed. Uh, like I said, the way we install and deliver them have completely changed. And so um it's it's it's really just about keeping Sally in mind and how do we serve her today?

Shannon 27:23

I almost want to ask the question, but I feel like it's a set of, you know, why do we go begrudgingly? We go, we just go begrudgingly. Eventually, like other industries lead the pack. Um, how do how do we do more of that for those who want to grow, for those who want to seek market share? Like, you know, what's what's the answer for just embracing some of these things? Just interviewed, you know, Greg French, the uh CEO over at Graceland. He was talking about, I mean, he was talking about this openly on the air, so not don't feel like I'm giving away any like secrets or whatever, right? And he was talking about the automation, you know. I interviewed, you know, the folks at Cook, Leonard down in Vladasta a couple of years ago, and they were talking about the automations that they're doing. And some of these larger companies and some of the things that they've accomplished are their where their their 3D models are going straight to their CNC machines or their dado saws through some kind of like AI engineering or technology, and it's like spitting out the boards, and you're you're almost like on a Ford Henry Ford assembly line. You're no longer a skilled builder, but you're coming in and you're punching buttons, you're making sure the machine works so that the uh the machine's doing what it's supposed to do, right? Uh so obviously with all of the options that exist now, Jonathan, like we're seeing where people are actually purchasing through AI. I think when last time I went to the Shed show, like somebody was like, let me chat that instead of let me Google that. It's becoming part of our vernacular now to have those conversations. So, like, where do you, you know, where do you feel like the future holds that place versus the back to the basics of taking care of the actual customer?

Jonthan Ulrich 28:59

Yeah. So, and you know, now just show you how fast the world's changing. We've all gotten used to chat GPT as sort of the leading, and now it's not anymore, right? Now it's uh clawed. And so we're gonna claw that instead of Google that or chat that. Um, but I but again, it really, it really, I think what's most important is serving Sally or whoever that front frontline customer that you've named, uh, that persona, really making sure we serve them and the way we birth best serve them, it's the basics, right? It's answering the phone, making sure the stores are actually staffed. I always said the first lie we tell a retail consumer is if our hours are nine to six and they get there at 9:30 and no one's there, or they get there at two and there's a note on the door and says, be back soon. Um, you know, this is just the front end. This is where they expect us to really sort of overpromise, maybe in the sales process. Um, hopefully we're not. Hopefully we're under-promising and overdelivering, but this is in the sales front. And when we're not doing what we say we're going to do there, how can they trust us with their lifestyle, you know, needs, dreams, and wants? So, it really does come down to what I'm really focused on as CEO and then operationally as president is how do we really keep Sally in mind as that frontline customer? And to me, it gets back to the basics of our core values, right people in right seats, ultimately everything that makes up our culture. And culture, you know, culture is a it's an unwieldy beast, and every one of our companies have one, right? It's either good or it's bad or it's it's mediocre. But culture really is the hardest thing. And that's a bit what fell apart at Ulrich over the past couple of years. And we're in the process of rebuilding that, blocking and tackling um those building blocks that it takes to have a phenomenal culture. Because if our people are right and our culture is right inside of, you know, the people inside working inside of that culture, that makes all the difference. And then really, you know, they can unlock the genius inside of them and take the risks and do what it takes to truly serve Sally in the moment when she's there, when she needs to be served.

Shannon 31:17

One of my favorite quotes is I said this on the at the Shed Cell Summit last year in Knoxville. Simon Sinek says 100% of businesses are run by 100% of people. And if you don't know people, you don't know business. Uh I mean, I just love listening to the guy. Uh I feel like he's got a really good handle on bringing culture into the environment. What does it mean to you? What is what does culture mean to you at Ulrich Lifestyles?

AD-IDENTIGROW 31:47

Oh no. Sam, what's going on? Are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, Lisa. I was just trying to get a screwdriver and all this other stuff fell down. I'm ready to go buy a shed so we can have some space in this garage again. I agree. I keep looking at the shed Mr. Jenkins bot and let's ask him where I got his. Howdy, neighbor. We're wondering how do you like your shed? I love it. It's exactly what I needed, and I couldn't have asked for a better service. And where did you get it? Hmm. I can't remember, but let me check. Something this nice will probably have the builder's name on it somewhere. No, I'm sorry. I can't find a name anywhere. Well, we finally got a dead. Yeah, so I just hope we're happy. The thing is a lot more shoddy than I expected. And I'm sure I told them I wanted a window, but they didn't have it in the paperwork, so I couldn't argue. Boy, is this a lousy shed. We haven't even had it two years, have we? Barely. It was just a bad deal all the way around. Mr. Jenkins told me the other day that he likes his head so much he wants to get a second one, but he still can't remember where he got it. Your product is your best advertising. At Identigrow, we provide nameplates that ensure your quality products are never forgotten. Identify your products, grow your business. For more information, visit identigrow.com. Or give them a call at 540-283-9193.

Jonthan Ulrich 33:26

So,

Culture Means What You Tolerate

Jonthan Ulrich 33:27

I've been through a lot of culture training and leadership talks, um, thought leaders like uh like Simon or others. Um and there's a lot of maybe different definitions out there. My favorite one is very, very simple. And it probably goes back to you know something our grandparents or parents probably taught us that the strength of your chain is the weakest link. Um, similarly in culture, culture is simply for me, culture is simply the lowest behavior tolerated, the lowest behavior tolerated. So if it's okay for stores to, you know, store employees to show up um at 9 30 or leave early or leave in the middle of the day um and not be there to service our customers, that becomes a standard, that is the culture. If it's okay to, you know, mouth off to a customer or to not answer the phone or to not you know do what it takes to delight the customer, that becomes your culture. If it's okay to treat each other disrespectfully, if the worst person on the team treats others disrespectfully and it's tolerated, that becomes our culture, right? So, I really you know think of that. What am I tolerating in myself, first and foremost? In myself, in my behavior, what am I tolerating? Uh, because as a leader, others look to our behavior to really set the bar for where our culture is. But then it's also as leaders, it's the behavior that we tolerate um in others. And so, you know, obviously we want to we want to, there's lots of books and tools and et cetera, to build culture. Obviously, I think a big part of a healthy culture is an environment of trust, right? Because with trust, when we trust each other, I can make a mistake, you can make a mistake. We still you know believe that we did it with the best intention, but we learn from it. I demonstrate to you that I'm not going to mouth off at you again because I had the best intention. I was super passionate about this customer. And that means I don't do it again, right? I demonstrate by my behavior that that was unacceptable and that I will not repeat it. Um, but it really just comes down to that lowest common denominator, the lowest behavior you tolerate, the worst behavior you tolerate in myself or of our team. That is culture.

Shannon 35:52

Man, there's so there's only 13 different directions we can go with. I feel like some of this conversation from books read to podcasts to you know, like people are people. I don't know. Some of my favorite sayings here lately. I've got a guy that uh we go to a it's called Man Up Camp. We go to a camp each year where a bunch of men get together and they go out in the wilderness and tent camp and you know, all this stuff. And his favorite saying is people be people. And but I think about like at Atley Burnett over at Burnett's, and uh he's he told me a phrase one time, and it's not his, he stole it from someone and then he used it, but it's uh people are crazier than anybody. And I love those two, and I use them a lot. I used them even before this uh call came on here. Um when you're dealing with machines, and we use this word that's coming up a lot in CRMs, we use this word that's coming up in AI, automations. How do we automatically make this happen? How do you automatically instill a culture in a group of people who have a different set of uh ideas, a different set of thoughts? I mean, like we're not robots, we're not meant to be automatic. Um, and how do you create a culture? And how have the companies who've done it the best that some of the some of the you know Forbes 100 companies who say you won't find a customer who says that you know they're not a raving fan. Like we create like that environment. We somehow foster uh excellence in our customer service approach. I worked for a casino and like look, most people are unhappy when they leave a casino. It's like Disney World. You know, you go with an experience, you usually don't come back out with a with a product. Yeah, exactly.

Jonthan Ulrich 37:31

You know, but that's at least Disney told you up front what the investment's gonna be.

Shannon 37:37

Well, I'm gonna tell you, these guys were excellent though on customer service because you know, like we were taught, like I would know if you came in, hey Mr. Alwork, welcome back. It's good to see you again. Can I tell you about today's promotion? I mean, like you were just so engaged in providing radical customer service. Um I'm gonna be honest with you, it it's a struggle going from that and then seeing some of the nonchalant approaches that are taken in the shed industry. Like it's a struggle. We're like 15 years behind what we were doing, you know, already then. And like I just don't think it's valued from a lot of owners. I'm gonna get myself in hot water here. I better, I better quit. But I mean, do you do you agree with that? I mean, does it seem like we're just not like aggressively taking care of the customer? That's not our culture.

Measuring Experience With NPS Feedback

Jonthan Ulrich 38:28

Well, I think I think in years like what we just came out of the pandemic years, um, and inventory's flying off the shelf, and we can't keep, you know, we can't keep our lead times to a reasonable short lead time and et cetera, it's really easy to forget who we're actually serving, right? I tell my team all the time I was on the factory floor, I think the other day, and uh I said, listen, you think I write your paycheck, but the reality is, is the human that bought that shed, the human that bought that cabin, they're the ones that write your paycheck. Because my you know, my pocketbook runs out pretty quickly. I mean, you take any company in the industry and you cut off our sales or even drop them by 50% and see how long we last. And you know, some have better balance sheets than others and can last longer, but ultimately at the end of the day, we don't exist except for one reason, and that is to serve our customers. So, one thing, I mean, I agree with you, and I think that's something we have to fight every single day because um, for various reasons, you know, maybe different for different companies. One thing that we do is we obviously go after five-star Raving Fan customer reviews on Google and uh Google My Business and other places. But one thing we do is we do a um two things internally. We do an employee net promoter score survey once a quarter where we ask a basic list of questions. And then, you know, like any NPS for it to be an NPS survey, it has to ask the one critical question how likely are you to refer Ulrich as a place to work to your friends and family? Right? That's the net promoter score. Um, and it's on a scale of one to 10, and I think zero to six are detractors, seven and eight are um neutral, maybe six, seven, and eight are neutral, and nine and ten are promoters. And so if you and if you put all that together and start thinking about the score that that makes, it's actually from a scale of negative 100 to positive 100. And I found this to be a super effective tool. And then for customers, we do this after install on every single shed. We give them this um survey and have them fill it out, and it's incredible. You know, we'll ask them maybe a few questions, but there's only one question that counts for the score. How likely are you to refer Ulrich for whatever product they purchased to your friends and family? And we have we have a one product division in particular that it's a much larger um sale. Um, the you know, the lead times are much longer, maybe three or four or five months, um, two to three months at minimum. You know, maybe it's a $200,000 investment. And so, we've started sending out that um from me as CEO directly to the customer, just soliciting, you know, frowny face, uh, red, you know, orange is sort of, I'm not smiling, I'm not frowning, and green smiley face, and just ask them to click on that and then have one open box for their input. And we're doing that mid-project. So after the sale, maybe a few weeks, maybe it's before a few weeks before it gets delivered, some something in that time frame, just ask them what's your current experience with Ulrich. Here, our Ulrich family and the leadership team want to know how is your experience? Give us some feedback. And so it again, I'm not to beat a dead horse, but it's the only horse worth beating. How does Sally feel? Not just the day she walked into the store, but the day she made the actual purchase decision and wrote a check the day after that she has buyer's remorse because something wasn't you know properly sold to her, explained to her, or halfway through the project, or when she gets to the end of the project, and if we obsess over the customer, we will be successful. I think I before the before we started recording, I told you about a story of in another friend in another country. Um, he's a retailer, uh, traditional retailer, so not in our industry. And he went during the pandemic. Um, he had to file what our equivalent in America is from a chapter 11. And today, you know, this is four years later, five years, six years later, um, not even. His personal net worth is over six billion dollars. And it's made up exclusively of you know, his portfolio and his retail portfolio. Um, and it's made up of you know, this obsession of the of Sally. It's this obsession of being curious about the customer and their needs and dreams and wants and what are they experiencing, not just in the world generally, because you got to understand that to serve them, but with your company, with my company, what is their experience and really, really obsessing over that. And it's made him seven billion dollars. Um, and there's I'm sure some other things he got right along the way, but as he reflected, um, I was with him a few weeks ago, and as he reflected what took him into bankruptcy and what you know I had to Google see what his net worth was, um, because he won't brag about it. But you know, what took him from that from X to Y, it was very clearly talking to him and talking to his team, their obsession with Sally, their obsession with the customer.

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Shannon 45:51

I think referrals are so just completely underrated. Your best salesperson is a happy customer, there's no doubt in my mind. I mean, you never pay them a salary. They they always do a good job and they can spread to multiple people in a network that you can't. I think the dangers of success are just as important as the dangers of failure. I think I've said on here many times before, my parents always said have a backup plan. They never said have a plan for when things work out because things just never worked out. Like things always failed. So you always had the backup. But when things work out, you also have to have a plan. And I was reminded this morning of a morning um uh verse that I get sent to me every morning. I won't read the whole thing, but this small part where it says, But, there are dangers and plenty. This was fully understood by the writer of Proverbs who said, Don't make me either poor or rich, but give me only the bread I need for each day. If you don't, I might have too much. And I think sometimes we could get lost in our culture with, you know, whatever happens with success. We went through our own personal, you know, battle here with uh with our marketing, you know, like we had to revamp that, you know, like we've had, you know, probably over half of those customers return. And uh, and some we probably lost forever, and we understand that. And it's been a costly lesson to like figure some of those things out. Too much success too quick is just as dangerous as no success at all. Uh, it is it is a it is a learning lesson. Good problem to have, still a problem, but like how do you change your culture? And like we really came back to, and I don't want to make a big sales pitch here, but we really we just really came back to like what do we want? What do we want to do? How do we want to help people? Like, what is the future for us? And like, who do you want to be as a person? It's it's really cool to like have the confidence to know that like God really does, you know, say, I'll take care of the birds of the air, I'll take care of you. So, like, there's a future for you, but he gives you the the wood, he doesn't give you the bench. Like, there's a lot of work you gotta go do.

Jonthan Ulrich 47:52

I'm learning, I've learned. Yeah, I mean, it's along the line. Absolutely. My one year of high school, uh, my teacher, homeroom teacher, um, Chester Weaver taught me or made me made me memorize something that I've used a thousand times. I have it in my um home office. Uh, when I had a work office at a work office in my work office, and it's the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling. And there's a line in there exactly to that point, and it's definitely based on you know proverbs. If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same, right? So it's it really is. Um, when we go through years like the pandemic, we sometimes forget what the basics are. And I'll tell you, I don't know for those of you listening, if you guys have experienced it, but I'll tell you, we did at Ulrich. And it definitely had a positive impact, and there were some negative unintended consequences that we're having to recover from now.

Shannon 48:50

You know, I think we I think we all go through it. I'm almost reminded of uh a good friend of both of ours, someone he worked with closely, Steve Byler, talking about his story. You know, I mean, he was very uh vulnerable whenever he shared him. I should I should call him. I feel like we should get him back on. I met with him when we were out in Virginia the last time we went through. And what a stellar guy. I always refer to him as just like, there's just people in the industry that I love, like yourself, Steve, others. I could I can I'll leave people out if I start naming them. That like on some personal level, they have been uh the uh visually present with me and many times on this podcast, uh, watching me grow through my own personal journey. And so, like on a personal level, they'll forever mean something to me, right? Like the conversations we've just had, some of us off air, and I've not had a ton with Steve, but yeah, I have had a couple with you and others in the industry. And it's just really cool to be like, wait a minute, you can still be bold enough. Maybe part of my culture is just being bold enough to come out and say, I don't know, and I don't have all the answers. But I'll tell you what, I've I can take advice. And so, the best advice I've been given is get yourself in a room of smart people and learn from them. You'll absorb naturally just by being around people. So, I think our culture over here has been one of being inquisitive, one of being just like willing to learn and willing to admit that like we don't have all the answers, even whenever things start to go well, the dangers of things going well, humble you really quick. I I'm going to our men's small group church thing tonight. And like I made the comment in the last one. I said, you know, the devil's long suffering too. Like the Lord's not the only long suffering, like the devil's long suffering too, and uh, and he'll suffer a long time to get you where he wants you. And I don't want to make this overly uh spiritual, but I mean, I just believe that like every now and then we all need that that alter moment, you know, in our lives.

Jonthan Ulrich 50:43

Well, I think, you know, go ahead. I think that is the actual point, right?

Go To The Front Line Gemba

Jonthan Ulrich 50:47

Um, that that is the actual point of there's a Japanese word "GEMBA" that just means the you know, the place the work actually happens. And that's hopefully what my message has been. Um, you know, and my journey that's come through on this podcast, there's a there's a lot of things that I don't know and don't have figured out. Um, and as the world changes, there's going to be even more, right? And the older we get, so the older we get, the less we know, right? So, but what's important, what I've always found is when you "GEMBA", when you go and see whether you're running factories or retail stores, if you'll actually stay focused, just go to the actual factory floor and see what the factory workers are actually experiencing, the work, the place that work is actually happening, or go to the retail store, or you know, listen into customer phone calls if you have online sales. And if you'll actually focus on that, it'll give you the answer, right? So, it's why I moved my it's why I moved my headquarters uh from a tower downtown to back to the factory, right? Because it disconnected us too much, you know, Boeing and these other companies hadn't come out with their learnings. There wasn't a Harvard Business Review on why HQ should be at the factory. And for a lot of you listening, you can probably say, well, I could have told you that. Well, that's you know, this is this is where we live and learn. Um sometimes we have to learn it the hard way, which I did. And look, I'm not saying it can't work, but I will tell you, I will tell you that being at a factory where raw materials are rolling in, sales are being made, um, and finished product is going out has put me, I knew that I had to be back at the factory if I really wanted to run this company as president, because I, you know, sitting in a boardroom, you can come up with a lot of great, cool-looking slide decks, but solutions actually happen when you talk to customers and frontline employees.

Shannon 52:41

One of my favorite moments as a dealer was whenever our dealer rep was telling me about a story with the executives, and they were talking about all the things that the dealer should do. And he stopped and he said, How many of you guys in here have been a dealer? And like, no hands went up. It's just like one of my favorite stories uh since I've been in this industry, because it's like it's very humbling to be like, Yeah, I've never I assume a lot of things, but I've never actually experienced them. And you can't experience everything all the time. Jonathan, me and you can talk for probably a couple hours about these things, and maybe we will. I just want to say a personal thank you for not only uh, you know, just the phone calls, the personal phone calls, the opportunities I've had to talk with you off air, the opportunities on air. I I mean, let us not stop communicating. That's the key. Let us not stop communicating. I believe good communication solves a lot of problems. And I believe that that's why we come together at the expo. I believe that's why we come together at the Shed Holler events. I think that's why we come together uh in any capacity is like to recognize that yes, there is a very competitive nature to what we do, and we try to find uh we try to find those ties that bind us in both collaboration and competition. And if we can do that, uh maybe going back to your Rudyard Kipling, you know, poem, I think I'll take a look at that, and I think everybody should, because I think that's a it's been a long time since I've read it. It's a good place to start to remember that like we just don't have all the answers. We're all trying to figure it out. And some of us are just being louder about suggesting that we think we have them. But it does mean a lot.

Jonthan Ulrich 54:19

But I think there, I think, I do think there are some key principles that will not lead you astray. And it's not about knowing the exact what to do, it's about going and looking and asking the right places, and that leads us to the answer. And that, you know, that those are the principles that are talked about in in the poem if by Rudyard Kepling. It's the principle of yep, culture, it's the principle of staying connected to your frontline uh your team members and ultimately your customer. That will lead you, that will lead me to the right decision. So, help us, God, we can execute on what we find out and make good decisions based on that and onward into the future, uh, both here at Ulrich and at Shed Geek and for the entire industry.

Shannon 55:02

I love it. There's no better way to leave it. I definitely would love to have you back on sometime. We'll get back to numbers. I remember we did a numbers conversation before, and you're such a brilliant guy. But I'll tell you what, you're just uh you're able to pivot. You're a Willie Maze of the Shed industry, you're a five-tool player, you seem to be able to uh be good at everything you do. And uh I've learned personally from having you on and having conversations personally. And uh I wish you nothing but success. I know that you're gonna continue to do well, and you've just been a great part of our story over here. And I just say thank you and uh I wish you nothing but the best as you continue to move forward.

Jonthan Ulrich 55:40

Well, thank you for the kind but somewhat untrue words. I think my only my only unique advantage has been up to this point and probably will continue to be, is to be uh sort of dumb enough not to give up, dumb enough to not know it's you know not supposed to work, um, believe you know, we and me, the team together, we can do it. Um, and just truly never give up. Every day pick up the tools and go after to make it happen. And when life knocks us down, when a competitor knocks us down, when the industry, when the you know, customer, whatever it is, to just really pick back up and go back after it and never quit, never give in, never give up. Um, and you know, go back to the front line and learn and observe and bring that back home. So, I appreciate the time. It's great being back on air with you and uh likewise to you, wish you all the best. Always enjoy our conversations.

Shannon 56:34

Thank you so much, Jonathan. I appreciate it.

OUTRO 56:39

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. A quick thank you to our studio sponsor, Shed Pro. Head over to shedpro.co/ shed geek and take their free Shed Sales audit. It takes just a few minutes and it gives you a clearer picture of what's going on underneath. Thank you for listening as always. And thank you, Shed Pro, for being this year's Wednesday studio sponsor on the Shed Geek Podcast.