Shed Geek Podcast
The Shed Geek Podcast offers an in depth analysis of the ever growing and robust Shed Industry. Listeners will experience a variety of guests who identify or specialize in particular niche areas of the Shed Industry. You will be engaged as you hear amateur and professional personalities discuss topics such as: Shed hauling, sales, marketing, Rent to Own, shed history, shed faith, and much more. Host Shannon Latham is a self proclaimed "Shed Geek" who attempts to take you through discussions that are as exciting as the industry itself. Listeners of this podcast include those who play a role directly or indirectly with the Shed Industry itself.
Shed Geek Podcast
Mastering Shed Delivery: Insights from a 20-Year Veteran
Calvin Shirk takes us on a twenty-year journey through the evolving world of shed hauling, sharing hard-won wisdom that only comes from moving thousands of buildings through impossible terrain.
Starting as a fresh-faced 22-year-old in 2002, Calvin built his career while simultaneously raising ten children – a balancing act that tested his determination daily. Now, his oldest three sons and daughter have joined him as certified pilot car drivers, turning deliveries into true family affairs. Those moments when his youngest daughter keys the radio during a delivery just to say "Hi Dad" rank among his most cherished career highlights.
The conversation reveals how dramatically shed hauling has transformed over two decades. From basic trailers with minimal features to today's sophisticated hydraulic systems and powerful mule machines, Calvin has adapted to every technological advancement. Yet his most valuable insight might surprise you – there is no perfect setup. Some situations demand a semi-truck with all the bells and whistles, while others require the maneuverability of a pickup and specialized equipment. Flexibility remains the key to success.
Calvin shares the harrowing tale of moving a 16×60 building across West Virginia mountains, requiring multiple machines working in tandem to navigate a single-lane bridge and climb a near-impossible grade. This four-hour ordeal exemplifies the problem-solving spirit that defines successful haulers. But the industry continues evolving, with buildings growing ever larger and delivery distances stretching farther, creating new challenges that demand innovative solutions.
Beyond equipment and techniques, Calvin offers practical wisdom about customer communication, including strategic voicemail methods and the superior effectiveness of text messaging, especially in rural areas with spotty coverage. His commitment to giving customers his undivided attention – even leaving his phone in the truck during deliveries – speaks to the professionalism that has sustained his long career.
As the shed industry continues its rapid evolution toward larger, more complex structures, Calvin's perspective provides both a historical foundation and a glimpse into the future challenges haulers will face. His journey reminds us that in this business, the learning never stops and adaptation is the only constant.
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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Pro
Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek Podcast. Here's a message from our 2025 studio sponsor. Let's be real Running a shed business today isn't just about building great sheds. The industry is changing fast. We're all feeling the squeeze, competing for fewer buyers while expectations keep climbing, and yet I hear from many of you that you are still juggling spreadsheets, clunky software or disconnected systems. You're spending more time managing chaos than actually growing your business. That's why I want to talk to you about our studio sponsor, ShedPro. If you're not already using them, I really think you should check them out.
INTRO:ShedPro combines your 3D configurator, point of sale, rto contracts, inventory, deliveries and dealer tools all in one platform. They even integrate cleanly into our Shed Geek Marketing solutions, from website lead to final delivery. You can quote, contract, collect payment and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. Contract collect, payment and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. No more double entries, no more back and forth chaos. Quoting is faster, orders are cleaner and, instead of chasing down paperwork, you're actually running your business. And if you mention Shed Geek, you'll get 25% off all setup fees. Check it out at Shedpro. co/ shedgeek. Thank you, ShedPro, for being our studio sponsor and, honestly, for building something that helps the industry.
Sam Byler:All right, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. Friday fun day. Sambassador style. I'm your host, Sam Byler. And man, I am so excited to be here today with one of my good friends, Calvin Shirk from Virginia. Calvin's been a hauler a long time. Currently hauls for Helmuth Builders up there. Calvin, how are we doing today? We're doing awesome.
Calvin Shirk:Vacation day Vacation day. Yep.
Sam Byler:And it looks like you're outside. You must be further up north than Virginia, because there ain't no way you're sitting outside in the temperatures that we're in right now.
Calvin Shirk:Oh, it's a beautiful day here in Pennsylvania. The top forecasted temperature was 73 for today, so it is just. It's like Chris said earlier, it's air conditioning the shop today. No, no kidding.
Sam Byler:And if this shop is the way it used to be. It can use a little air conditioning, that's right. Yeah, you know, air conditioning a shop is something that we're dealing with right now. Of course, I'm I don't know 700 miles south from Chris's shop there at Scenic View. I don't know 700 miles south from Chris's shop there at Scenic View, but we just well, we set a record three days ago for the most consecutive days in a row at 90-degree weather, and today we keep as of today. We broke that record every day since, so now we have 41 days in a row over 90 degrees.
Calvin Shirk:It's hot. Wow, wow, that is hot now. That being said, the temperature for here tomorrow, the high is 76 and the high on Sunday is 72 oh well, then you're getting what we have right now, where I'm at, yep, yep, I'm kind of, I'm kind of excited about that. Maybe it'll cool our chop off a little bit.
Sam Byler:I think I saw by next Wednesday or Thursday we're going to be right where I'm at. Yep, yep, I'm kind of I'm kind of excited about that. Maybe it'll cool our shop off a little bit. I think I saw by next Wednesday or Thursday we're going to be right back in our typical august weather, but that's the way it is. So what? What takes you to Pennsylvania?
Calvin Shirk:Got family up here. Uh, actually, both my wife and my families are in Pennsylvania yet and uh, okay, hanging out with my wife's family here for this weekend again very good, that's cool.
Sam Byler:So what's what's the story? What's the story behind Calvin? Where did how did? I don't even know how you even got into sheds, like I know a lot about you and we've talked a lot already, but I don't. I don't really know where. Where did Calvin come from? So are you originally from Pennsylvania?
Calvin Shirk:I am.
Sam Byler:Okay.
Calvin Shirk:I grew up in. I was born in Lancaster County but I grew up in Sealands Grove area. My first job had me on a high tensile fence and the shop we took our truck to happened to also be a shop that had his own shed rigs and a few over the road, uh, general freight trucks so he kind of put the bait out for me a couple times about shed hauling and he started throwing the money figures out there.
Calvin Shirk:So I attempted it and first year was a little rough. Uh ran for an amish guy that was a single fella, so he didn't know about getting people home on time. But anyway, I was going to quit after that first.
Sam Byler:I'm guessing you have a family.
Calvin Shirk:I had a family. I mean when I started we had our second baby was just almost here when I started hauling sheds, so yeah, that was a little bit rough.
Sam Byler:I was going to ask you what year you started and since I know your kids a little bit, I kind of have a general idea of where I think you're at. But what, what year would have this been?
Calvin Shirk:So that would have been 2002, just a little before thanksgiving, when I first hauled my first shed.
Sam Byler:Wow.
Calvin Shirk:Yeah, I was 22 years old and basically I guess the insurance guy kind of did one of those not 100% Charlie deals something about being a brother or whatever to slide me on the insurance. But it worked and I walked a pretty fine line there that first year. Actually, I got rear ended in that first year and it almost got me thrown off the insurance. He had to go back and get the police report that it was not my fault to keep me on the insurance for the second year.
Sam Byler:Yes, even though it wasn't your fault, correct? Yeah, I've, I've. I remember way, way back in the day when you kind of had to uh, when you first started somebody off new and they were better drivers than some of my more experienced drivers, but you kind of had to. You kind of hit them in the pot with everybody else and kind of told them look, you got to behave for six months, 2002, you were 22. That was half a lifetime ago, man.
Calvin Shirk:That's right. I didn't think about it that way before, but you're right, that's crazy, you're twice as old, double that age, yeah, and your boys have grown up on you. They did Yep. The oldest three are 20 and above now, so you have three of them 20 and above.
Sam Byler:Correct, so how many children you have?
Calvin Shirk:10. 10? 10 to the side of heaven, yep.
Sam Byler:Nice, All the way from. Okay, how old's the oldest one?
Calvin Shirk:He's 23, and the youngest one will be three here in another couple months. Nice, we've got a big age range. But, yeah, we enjoy every blessing that God gave us.
Sam Byler:Oh, I know you do. I've seen you around your children, I know you do. You've seen you around your children? I know you do. You got a good bunch too. They're a lot of fun to hang out with. I follow a couple of them on Facebook and it's interesting to know you as parents. So I get to watch a lot of people's kids. But a lot of times I don't know the parents that good. I mean, sometimes I know the parents. Times I don't know the parents that good. I mean, sometimes I know the parents and I don't know the kids as good. But it's always interesting to me to see one of the two parents that becomes the more like you can see. Well, they're more like their mama, they're more like their daddy, or vice versa, or whatever. And then there's the ones, like a couple of years, that just seem to be a good mix. So, yeah, so, like a couple of years that just seemed to be a good mix. Um, so yeah, so. So you, you've been at it.
Sam Byler:You basically raised the family while you were doing, while you've been doing shed hauling.
Calvin Shirk:oh, exactly, uh, it's like I was when I was thinking about this earlier today. It's like the oldest two, while the youngest or the loved the oldest two, the second one wasn't quite born when I started, but literally the oldest boys were in diapers when I started.
Sam Byler:Yeah. And now they're out doing their own thing.
Calvin Shirk:They're doing their own thing, but the three boys and the oldest daughter are now certified as pilot cars, so I get them back in part-time basis to help me out, and I just love it and yeah it's also certified, so I've got my in our house now. We got a total five certified people for pilot cars yet. So, uh, even though I mean we work for a family business but we're not the owners, but it feels like we own the delivery part because it's a family affair for delivery.
Sam Byler:Yep, it is. And where are you located at? Where are you living at?
Calvin Shirk:We're in Broadway, just 10 minutes north of Harrisonburg, Virginia.
Sam Byler:Right in the middle of the valley.
Calvin Shirk:Yep beautiful Shenandoah.
Sam Byler:Valley. Yeah, no kidding, it is a beautiful place. So what's the highlight of your shed hauling career? I always like to know the highlight before I know the low side. Maybe I do it backwards, but I mean, obviously you've raised a family doing it. That has to be pretty high on the list. But like what? What do you look at as your? You know your top moments of what. What makes you know what made you decide to stick with it this long. A couple more years, you'll have 25 years in.
Calvin Shirk:Yeah, it's kind of interesting you ask that question. It's, I guess, when I wasn't really totally considering. But as far as what we just discussed, as far as having the children join me in it and, you know, at least on a part-time basis, that's probably one of my highlights there, I mean, between my children, my wife my wife also, uh, helps out with pilot car work, so, and then if she comes, of course the younger children get the ride too. I mean one of the highlights. That is actually a highlight. I mean like when she's changing from following me to chasing me as she comes around me and that little girl in the back seat, in the car seat, and she keys up the radio as she comes by and the little girl says, hi, dad. I mean that is one of the highlights, right there.
Sam Byler:Yeah, you can't beat that, can you? That's right. What's the low side of shed hauling while you're raising a big family?
Calvin Shirk:the amount of hours you spend doing it. I'm one of those that just finds it so hard to say no. I mean, if there's a job to be done, you don't go home until it's done. Whether it's done, yeah.
Calvin Shirk:Whether it's 6 o'clock at night 8, 9, 10, midnight, 2 am, and we've all been there Until it's done.
Calvin Shirk:Yep, yep, and I'd say that's the downfall.
Sam Byler:Yeah, what about as far as the actual deliveries and stuff? I'm sure you're in the south. You know well I consider virginia, the south. Some people might not, but what's what's the? What's your best delivery in your worst delivery situation? You got mountains, so you get into some we got mountains?
Calvin Shirk:oh, we do. I guess one of the I don't know if this is the top delivery, but it's the most memorable one is october of 23. We took a 16 by 60 back across the mountain on 33. It's a two-lane highway and it's about four or five miles from the bottom to the top. As you go the wiggle wiggle up across down the other side into west virginia. Then we bent back across, went from a two-lane road to basically a lane and a half what 16 wide.
Calvin Shirk:You're taking every bit of the road yeah and about two miles before we get there we're crossing this one lane bridge which I had done a site check so I knew kind of what I'm up against for, and it just had low sides on I thought I'm good. Well, we get about halfway across and we learn. Then we figure out that the road drops off on the far side so that brings the front of the building down and back of the building the trailer don't have enough power to lift it up and float across there it's a homemade trailer.
Calvin Shirk:It's a homemade trailer, that's, you know, basically an inventory trailer yeah so we had bought a mule seven just simply for this building. You know, we knew we needed another one anyway and uh. So I had one of my boys as one of the pilots and come back and uh, kind of racked our brains a little bit. So we took the mule seven on the side of the building and picked up enough and had the mass turned sideways so that we could run the mule with the building oh yeah put him in the, put him in the driver's seat of the semi, so he moved the truck forward as I moved the mule front.
Calvin Shirk:I think we ended up re uh, re-hooking as you will, if you will, to get the mule where it needed to be, and we got off that bridge. Ups was waiting on us. A couple of locals were waiting on us until we got off. Oh no, but we got across that single lane bridge yeah.
Sam Byler:I heard that. But then the fun was only beginning.
Calvin Shirk:We got back there I had done a site check, like I said, and I knew it was a pretty good hill and that's why I wanted the power of a seven over the five that I had before. Oh yeah, but it was that steep of a hill. I mean, we got the thing about two building lengths off the road and ran out of power on that, couldn't get on up the hill. So thankfully we had the 5,500 as long as one of the pilot cars and we ended up hooking that to the front of the building while I pushed at the back of the building at the mule and I think it was about four hours later we finally had it to the top of the hill.
Sam Byler:Oh my word With a 5,500 pulling and a seven on the back.
Calvin Shirk:That's correct. That's what it took.
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Sam Byler:So you said this was a 16 by 60, correct?
Calvin Shirk:Correct, that is correct.
Sam Byler:And before that you would have been moving these with a five. I never built like that, but you would have been moving them.
Calvin Shirk:That was our first one that big. Okay, so I had ran out of power on a l-sided 14x48 with the 5, and that's why I said, when the 16x60 come along, we got to have more power. I ran out of power on a 14x48. Here we're, 2 foot wider and 12 foot longer Got to have more power, I mean, it's a lot more weight.
Calvin Shirk:Well, it got that steep that, even full throttle. If I hit the remote, it just killed that 7 instantly. That's how steep that even full throttle. If I'd hit the remote, it just killed that seven instantly. That's how steep that hill was wow wow, so there is. There is a video to document that whole delivery got documented. We had a 20 year old sales guy at the time uh, actually a friend of my son's uh documented the trail up across the mountain, documented the whole delivery. So it's on youtube, it can be seen.
Sam Byler:It's a 12 minute long video yeah, I was gonna ask you if that's the one that's on that I've seen videos of, so it's on what? Where do you find your stuff under youtube?
Calvin Shirk:so I've we've done our own personal youtube channel for that stuff. I was like probably could have done it on the company page, but but I was like, well, if the next driver's not as crazy as I am at least he doesn't have to try to keep up.
Sam Byler:Yeah, no kidding.
Calvin Shirk:So our channel is Daphne Dale Deliveries and if you type that in, it'll come up, and then there's, I think, right around 30 different videos on there with. So you have a bunch of. I knew you had some.
Calvin Shirk:Yeah, basically I started that to show to try to cut down on the amount of site checks. I do so you can show a prospective customer. Hey, you know you get this scenario popping up. But what about if we do this and it cut down my amount of requested site checks by a lot? Because they can see, oh, you can do that. Yeah, we're good to go.
Sam Byler:Yeah, yeah, that does help. And a picture is worth a thousand words. A video is worth a thousand pictures. Exactly so it does. It makes a big difference.
Sam Byler:So, talking about mules, that's one of my sponsors. Well, actually I have two. I have a cardinal that sponsors us which has the mule, and then the challenger also sponsors us. Um, they and both of them advertise with us. You know, some people are like how can you have both of them on there? And I'm like, look, you got to have multiple options. And exactly, I've never been a fan of of just one thing being the final. I mean, we would still be using pipes, we wouldn't even have hydraulic trailers yet. So I'm always up for you know, and you know we've said for years let's, let's find something that works different from what we already have and the Challenger obviously I don't know if you've got to run one yet or not but works completely different than what a mule does. But let's talk about mules for a little bit, the little machines. For those that are listening maybe that don't know. You know, most of the people that listen to us, they immediately know oh, it's not a four-legged donkey trying to pull a building up hill.
Sam Byler:It's the little machine that we put under it.
Calvin Shirk:Uh-oh, you got an opinion on that? No, I got a funny story. Oh, one of our so one of our sales people was talking to a customer one day and uh, the customer's telling him what her site's looking like and he's like, oh, it sounds like you know, our mule should be able to do that. And she goes oh, the poor thing. Again, it's a four-legged mule.
Sam Byler:Yeah, we put wheels under it, we put a pair of donkeys on the end of it and away we go. Perspective is everything.
Calvin Shirk:But yeah, I won't ever forget that one, so perspective is everything.
Sam Byler:But yeah, I won't ever forget that one. You know there's many a time sitting around a table with 12, 15 haulers, sales guys, manufacturers, whatever, rent to own people. We are so far as people in the industry, we are so far in the woods sometimes that we forget what we say. You know we're talking about mules and this and that or whatever, and people don't have some people just don't have any idea what we're talking about. Um, but to get back to what I was going to ask you, you've been around long enough that you did this before we had mules. 2002 was they were pretty new.
Calvin Shirk:Even though I know there's a number of haulers in our listening audience and on our hauler page that are a good bit older than I am, I still refer to myself to my customers as an old school hauler. Yeah, yeah, because, like you just said, I use the pipes, I use the jacks, I use the digging bar. Give them a 45, give them a 90, whatever it needed to get them into place, but yeah yeah yeah, I did it the old school way to start so when did when did you first start?
Sam Byler:when did you first get to use a mule, or did you get? Did you get a nice? You had a nice trailer first, didn't you? Well, you had a trailer with some nice options on it correct.
Calvin Shirk:I started, uh, when I was first in virginia's, when I was introduced to the newer trailers, so I had a really nice spec'd out trailer at my previous company too, and then when I got to Helmuth we took that blueprint and just elaborated on it. So it's pretty much a fully loaded Pine Hill double frame trailer, that every option that was out there, even barn spinner, which was interesting. When I ordered that brevin's like well, not so many haulers order that anymore since the mules are out. Well, at the time we ordered that trailer I didn't have a mule, yeah, and he, and even since having the mule, I still once in a while. Well, I like to pull from a certain end of the building. I'll use my barn spinner, turn that building around so that I can pull from the end I want to pull from.
Sam Byler:Yes, yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah, what, what, uh, on a, let's say you got a fully loaded trailer right now. You've got, you know, a barn spinner, you got the push pull chain, you got sideways wheels, tail shift, let's say, you even have leveling axles. What are you willing, what are you not willing, to give up now?
Calvin Shirk:I don't know that there's any option that I want to give up. It's like when I spec this trailer out, I added an extra set of horse barn stingers on the back and for the first two or three years didn't really use them much. I figured on a long horse barn. You know it's going to take weight off my tail to save my tail extension. Yeah, and after Biz, like well, maybe I wasted money there. Well then we got into floorless buildings and I tell you what with floorless buildings, that extra support on that sidewall not just taking weight off my tail, but also supporting that sidewall as you're going down the road and well, it's not Pennsylvania or New Jersey roads, but it's still the state of the nation's roads just ain't the best. So I mean you get that extra little support in there and not rocking your building around. Yeah, I don't know of any option that I'm willing to give up on that, even with having a mule.
Sam Byler:Even with having a mule See.
Sam Byler:I've said this all the time. Your guys are ah, you got a mule, you just need a standard trailer. I don't know if you saw it. There was a post on today about a guy putting his dolly wheels under the back of an old WKM and he's using the mule to push it sideways. You know, he jacked the trailer up until all the weight's on the wheels in the back and that's his sideways wheels. And somebody's like ah, you got an old trailer, you know, and some guy'm like you're kidding me, I still, I still want to have those options available. Um, let's, let's, uh, let's, go into the let's get into sticky, into sticky mud a little more.
Calvin Shirk:Semi pickup truck it into sticky, in the sticky mode, a little more semi pickup truck. Well, as anybody that follows me on social media knows that I'm spoiled and have all their. I have three options available or four total, and I'm really not at a spot where I want to give any of those up either and I'm going to give credit to God on that. As far as it seems, breakdowns or whatever happened at the right spot. So last week's a good example. I mean mostly I run the semi and my newer Pine Hill trailer. Well, the Pine Hill had blown in a hydraulic line so I used the older truck and a pickup.
Calvin Shirk:And here again it's one of those that my boys grew up around this. They know what to expect we get there and it's one of those that had to go several hundred feet through the woods where they had just cleared out trees, used a box blade and with a little, I mean like a compact John Deere tractor. So I mean you know it's not a good path. Oh yeah, yeah, and it's the mule wouldn't have been a good option either, because I mean there was, uh, football sized rocks everywhere going in there. It would have just wiped the dolly wheels out. I mean it's a floorless horse barn going through the woods? Yeah, but I had had this short 18 foot trailer with the pickup and the sun that knew shed hauling and between the two of us, in about 45 minutes, maybe just over an hour, we had wheedled it back through the trees and it just it took every option we had.
Calvin Shirk:We had leveling axles on the trailer yeah the sideways wheels, and then we had the 5500, which turned shorter than the 3500, and just all those options together made it work. Yeah, and if we would have had the semi, we would have fought it with the the mule to get it back there, but we would have ended up jacking a couple times and putting dolly wheels back under and just overall being frustrated?
Sam Byler:yeah, no kidding.
Sam Byler:So what I'm hearing you say is there is no perfect setup exactly it all depends what you're getting into and and I'll even say this, even even though, okay, you know, we take a guy like Woody, it's been at it for 40 years. Woody does the same thing every week. He knows exactly what he does. There is a perfect setup for him. He knows exactly what he does. There is a perfect setup for him. He knows exactly what he's doing when he leaves um, so he knows exactly what he's got to have, what he wants, blah, blah, blah, all that.
Sam Byler:Um, Keith Stoltzfus, been at a long time, delivers in all the same areas, does all the same things, probably has the perfect rig. But even him, every once in a while I hear him bellyache a little bit about a single axle semi. You know, could he actually do it? You know, and he looks. His dad has semis everywhere. He grew up around semis, he drove semis. He knows all the ins and outs of them.
Sam Byler:Um, I think we're always trying to find a perfect setup and I think for the average delivery guy that has to haul his own inventory and stuff, what you said is just sums it up there is no perfect setup. Some days you're going to want the one, some days you're going to want the other one. I know exactly what you're talking about. You know there's one thing a mule can't do yet is an up and over. Now, granted, we keep saying we shouldn't do up and overs period. Well, all right, then spend an hour and take the lady's fence down, put her building in, put her fence back in. You know what's your other option here? Get a crane out. Whatever, I'm gone, I'm done. You know I do up and overs. Try to be as safe as I can. I put extra, you know, bolsters in to help prevent, you know, bad things from happening. What's, what's your opinion on all that?
Calvin Shirk:well, I can do an up and over generally in 10 to 15 minutes, and you just said it. You know you're looking at an hour plus till you pull a fence out and, if you're kind enough to put it back in, you're looking at a minimum of an hour. So, yeah, and with these newer trailers, yeah, it's, it could still fail, but it's got that lockout block in there. Yeah, so when that trailer's up in the air, even if that line blows, it's not supposed to come back down?
Sam Byler:yeah yeah.
Calvin Shirk:So I mean to me it's, it's not. Uh well, like I said earlier, I'm crazy, I mean I'll do it, I mean I won't obviously walk under that building while it's up in the air. Yeah, yeah, no, I will take my safety precautions, but to me and up and over is just part of the game and kind of actually I get a kick out of doing them.
Sam Byler:I enjoy, oh yeah I do too, me and you both you, you said something kind of uh off offhandedly there if you're kind enough to put the fence back in. I threw that in there on purpose because while we had a policy that we will take a fence out to put your building in, we also had a written policy that we did not put fences back in. It was in our paperwork, in the check sheet. I had a 13 point check sheet that when you bought a building you check marked every one of them. You had to check mark 13 times to say that you read all of them and then you had to sign at the bottom. And one of those was if we have to take your fence out to put your shed in, we will not reinstall your fence. We are not fence people.
Sam Byler:Um, because I had gone through years of delivering other people's buildings where I just take the fence out and then you know when you get back out, put it, you can't put a fence back up. It doesn't work that way. You've got to have the right tools. If it's a chain link fence, you've got to carry a stretcher and all that stuff. Sure, we put some of them back in because posts came out really nice and easy. We put them back in, tightened them up, but that was not policy. To put fences back in, is that something you do? See the same?
Calvin Shirk:That's the same. Yeah, we have the policy too. I don't know if it's in a checkpoint, like you mentioned, but it is clearly specified. We're not even supposed to pull the post. If a post needs to be pulled, the customer's supposed to have that done ahead of time.
Calvin Shirk:Well, we all know we're not in a perfect world and they're like oh, I didn't think about that. Well, when you got a jack and or a mule with a hydraulic mast and it takes you all of two minutes to do when you have the equipment in place, why wait on mr homeowner to find his jack or his shovel or whatever? Spend that two minutes to get permission? But, once you have that permission from the homeowner to go ahead you wrap that chain around there, you get it out of your way and game on.
Sam Byler:Yeah, instead of having to do a re-delivery. That brings me up to something. If the homeowner has it ready.
Sam Byler:I have something that happens to me more than anything else when it comes to fences and openings through fences, and this is the scenario of a 12 foot building and I pull up and there's a 10 foot gate and they're like I measured it and it'll fit. I have an argument for this. I'm curious if you know what it is when they pull a tape out and they pull it across a 10-foot gate why do they think it's 12-foot?
Calvin Shirk:Because it's 120 inches. So they're looking at 12-foot Because I've read into that exact scenario with a 14-wide here a couple years back.
Sam Byler:They did not know how to read a tape measure no, every time you pull it out and they'll be like right there, 12 foot, 12, zero.
Sam Byler:And I'm like honey, that's 120 inches, that 10 above there is 10 foot.
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Sam Byler:Exactly all the time. And now they didn't know they had to have the post out because they thought their 12-foot building. Granted, even if it was 12 foot, it's exactly the same size as my building without trim. Yep, so it's not going to fit anyway. Now, if you build like some of these guys around here do, your 12-foot building isn't but 11 foot four down at the bottom anyway, because they're 12 foot up at the roof. So, yes, you can actually fit it through a 12 foot opening, but you're not going to fit it through 120 inches anyway, you look at it.
Calvin Shirk:That is crazy that you knew exactly what I was talking about, because it happens all the time I don't have it happen too often, but I had a 14 wide that got delivered when I was on vacation one time, or moved, I should say, and yeah, that's how the customer's reading the tape and the driver had to tell him like look, this is not right. The sad part was he was building a gravel pad for this thing. Oh, no.
Sam Byler:And didn't know how to read the tape. Hey, that's an interesting. So you're kind of I don't know this about you, so I'm not sure where I'm going with this, if I'm going to win or lose my argument here. Gravel pads Okay, use them or don't use them.
Calvin Shirk:Sell them wherever you can use them. Sell them wherever you can use them or don't use them.
Calvin Shirk:Sell them wherever you can use them sell them wherever you can use them yep and we have we have a unique situation going on here with us now. We had a Amish family it's now ex-Amish moved from Pennsylvania to Virginia and set up business in 2020. Right at the time we got slammed with sales and deliveries. So previous to 2020, we did gravel pads as well as block sets. You know all in-house, these guys show up at the right time.
Calvin Shirk:I'm swamped, can't see light at the end of the tunnel and they're like, hey, we'd like the business of doing your gravel pads for you. Sure we'd love to partnership with and since that we have um and our sales people, of course, have all their information. They know we've worked together for over five years now and you have a good working relationship. And then we also sell them. You know it's better for your building. Long term it looks better. So after that relationship got well established, I mean probably 22 23 we were up to probably 60 to 75 percent gravel pads on a lot of buildings. Wow. Now the last two years it has backed off a little bit. But I know the other spring I had ordered block right around new year and I ordered a decent jag for what we normally do. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't reorder block to the end of march, because I had that many gravel pads throughout the winter.
Sam Byler:Yeah, so you're talking about gravel pads that you guys or subcontractors install, though Correct, you're not. What about gravel gravel? Telling the customer you got to have a gravel pad, either buy it through us or you got to do it yourself but or hire somebody. So if, if you're doing gravel pads yourself, you have a little bit more control of what that pad looks like when you show up with a building. Yeah, you see what. You know where I'm going with this I have a good idea people just drop sheds on and I'm like that shed ain't level.
Sam Byler:Oh, it don't matter, it's on a gravel pad, that's what they ordered, that's what they get, and I can't wrap my head around that to save my life. And then the next time there'll be a guy like on the hauler page, be like I finally got the elusive gravel pad and he's sitting on the gravel on one end and it's three blocks high on the other end.
Calvin Shirk:It's like you just wasted your time, my time and everybody else's time and a thousand two thousand dollars worth of gravel exactly well, I remember, yeah, first year, as at helmuth customer had the building ordered and on our check sheet it says whether it's a gravel pad or whether it's a block set it says gravel pad, and I get there and uh, yeah, it's a nice gravel pad, but and it's nice and even, but it's not level.
Sam Byler:Yeah, no kidding. Maybe you should be in that checkbox where it says gravel pad or block. There should be a box up there level gravel pad.
Calvin Shirk:Well, I haven't got it done yet. What I want to do is borrow Joe Gish's picture that he has posted already. That says level versus even posted already. That says level versus grow, or uh even and, and I want to, I want to print that picture and have every salesperson uh, hang it on the wall behind their desk, yep I get it.
Sam Byler:I do that with. I do that with my phone all the time. I'll turn that sucker on an angle and I'll be like this is what a customer thinks is level. And then I'll turn it caddy corner at an angle and be like this is what a customer thinks is level. And they'll now turn it caddy corner at an angle and be like this is what we're talking about and then turn the thing the other way and say this is what the salesman's thinking, because they all look, as long as it's all running the same way, they think it's level Correct and it is not. Yeah, it doesn't work that way.
Calvin Shirk:I just want that picture behind there, right behind them, so that everybody sees it. It's not on the sidewall, but you asked my preference on it and if I'm like with the situation I got now with a subcontractor doing the pads and doing a good job at it. Highly do the gravel pad is my preference, simply on the time savings.
Sam Byler:Yeah.
Calvin Shirk:Now, previous to that, when we were doing the gravel pads, where I was the delivery driver and the gravel pad installer, it was kind of a toss up because I'd spend that much time putting a gravel pad in that I could have blocked it in a quarter of the time oh yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a toss-up because, yeah, it was nice for delivering that shed, but I could have delivered three that day, whereas I got one done yeah so I did the pad and then put the shed on it yes, so yeah, it's.
Sam Byler:Uh, I've watched Evergreen the Weaver Boys up in Michigan, watched them grow their hauling company. Now they have a legit pad business I think it's two full-time employees, full-time rig, the nice little mini skid steer, all that stuff. They go out, put all the pads in and stuff Fantastic. I love the way that operates. But if I got to do any kind of work on a gravel pad, I just assumed they left it the way it was supposed to be, because leveling a building on gravel is worse than leveling a building on dirt. That's my personal opinion and most times if it's on gravel it's not going to get leveled, but a little bit. Now you've got to figure out how to crawl under a building full of slam rocks, not me.
Calvin Shirk:I agree with you to about 95. If the gravel is right and you can just take your hand and level out a spot to put your level, your block and go up from there, that's quicker than digging into the hard pan dirt oh yeah but yeah most of the time.
Calvin Shirk:You know the gravel is like you just said. You know, if you got to crawl under it and you got a small space to do it, it is just miserable. Yeah, yeah, I mean our sheds have five runners under so we've blocked that center runner. Well, you try to get that block in there. Even with a shovel or digging iron, you're pushing rock in there. I mean, you got to lift the thing an extra three or four inches if you're trying to lock that center runner if, if it's so tight just to get that center one in.
Calvin Shirk:This is true, yeah.
Sam Byler:What else have you seen that's changed in the hauling industry Outside of you know the nicer trailers, the going from well going to mules, and then also we've seen I feel like even in the past five years we've seen a huge change from pickups to semis.
Calvin Shirk:What other things do you see that have changed? Well, I guess to give pulled perspective on that and we alluded to that a little bit this is a conversation I've had with customers already. Back when I started, the first trailer I pulled had tilt, had a winch and I think it had an extending tongue. That was it.
Calvin Shirk:So I went from that to these fully tricked out modern day pine hill trailers, so I've already went a long ways right there yeah as far as what I've seen in the last five years, I think the biggest thing is the buildings keep getting bigger, so you just got to keep figuring out what the next step is there that's 100 what I was expecting you to say.
Sam Byler:I could have wrote it down on a piece of folded paper and gave it to it. The other thing that keeps being thrown at haulers is the size of buildings and the distance they want them hauled.
Sam Byler:Exactly it just seems like neither one of those. We're just constantly feeding a grinder that's never going to be happy. Going to be happy. I mean, we've got some massive trailers out there now, um that you know, 20 by 80 completely finished out cabins. Um, well, even even some of the guys that are strictly still doing shed side, you know, all of a sudden they're having to haul sheds four or five hours and the only way to make money doing it is to add another shed on the back. So you've got to have a longer trailer. The sheds are bigger. Some of them are being built heavier. There's more options to some of them. So all of a sudden, you know there's guys that aren't even hauling cabins, that are pulling cabin trailers just because of the size of the sheds they're hauling.
Calvin Shirk:Well, we're at that spot. At Helmuth Builders. They kind of crept up on me and kind of caught me a little bit off guard. We did a 16 by 34 finished out house for hurricane relief and that was the one that kind of triggered me into how warm this thing is. I just had a bearing go out the week before so I was really paying attention to my wheels that trip. And then I got to doing the math on the way to this building's like hey, this uh regular 12k axle shed delivery trailer is actually pretty far overloaded with this finished out cabin. I mean it. As far as the trailer functions, everything seemed like. You know, we're not necessarily beating the trailer to death, but we're way over on weight.
Calvin Shirk:So we're uh in the process of checking out our options with uh going toward a cabin, just simply. I mean we do two story buildings. Well, you add an extra story to a modular piece. It's already 12 by 40. I mean, now you, you went, you know you didn't quite double your weight, but you're at least 50, you're at least 50% more in weight. I mean that's debatable, you know, depending on your builder, but you know, I would say for us at least 50% more in weight.
Calvin Shirk:I mean that's debatable you know, depending on your builder. But you know, I would say for us at least it's at least 50% more weight being. You added that extra story.
Sam Byler:Yep. So now you're looking at a bigger trailer, correct.
Calvin Shirk:Which is going to limit us on options. I mean we talked about trailers a little bit earlier. I mean I still like my leveling axles. I mean you get into the woods somewhere and you got leveling axles option. Well, you just lean it a little bit, you get away from that tree and you go a little bit further. Now you lean it the opposite way to get away from that tree. Can't do that with a mule. Well, if.
Calvin Shirk:I go away from my regular double frame trailer to a cabin trailer, I'm losing that leveling axle option too, because I'm going air ride. Yeah, no kidding, it's always pros and cons?
Sam Byler:Yeah, there is Every time. Yep,
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Sam Byler:Bigger, bigger buildings big deal. Longer halls, big deal. What do you see coming down the road? How long you sticking with this? A while yet. What does the future look like for shed hauling and for shed hauling for you?
Calvin Shirk:personally, I'd like to see in the next three to five years that I can at least scale back in the amount of deliveries that I do and I don't know, you know exactly what that's going to look like possibly dispatch, who knows. I mean, basically I'm open to options yet at this point. But getting to the point, I mean I didn't, like I said earlier, I know there's haulers older than me, but you know, when you block the amount of buildings we block, that does take a toll on the heat we had this summer and you'd block three buildings in a day, I mean for me that's pretty much your body shot till then yeah, no kidding, and the older you get the harder it gets, I mean
Calvin Shirk:you get more of this, uh, yeah and yeah, I don't see any slowdown on the size of the building. I mean, for us at, I mean we've branched into the modular some, as the tiny house craze has caught on across the nation pretty much with the sheds, you know, turning them into houses and that's debatable in that term too. I mean, it's tiny house is supposed to be. What? Thousand square feet or under 1200 square feet?
Sam Byler:or whatever I mean. I get into this all the time. These are not tiny houses, these are chouses. I call them, you know, the shed, the house, their chouse. They're not tiny. Tiny houses are supposed to be able to be pulled behind the pickup truck down the road. You know a little. Eight by twelves, eight by fourteens and sixteens tall, skinny these things are massive they're literally, you know, like we 12s, 8x14s and 16s Tall skinny. These things are massive. They're literally like we said they're cabins, they're modulars, Call it what it is.
Calvin Shirk:So the biggest one we offer now is, I think, right around 2,400 square feet. If it's a two-story, well, that's bigger than the farmhouse I live in.
Sam Byler:Yeah, no kidding, that's bigger than my house. Yep, this is true, virginia's still a good market.
Calvin Shirk:Fresh from what I'm picking up through the different, like the shed sales professionals and some of that, uh, I would say virginia is actually a pretty strong market for this year and I'm seeing some of the other markets maybe a little bit softer. But I'd say Virginia is a strong market.
Sam Byler:Nice, that's cool.
Calvin Shirk:The competition is picking up, though that I have seen.
Sam Byler:Yeah, I'm sure this is your time. What would you tell the Haller Nation, the Shed Nation? Pick whichever one you want, or any of them. What's your advice? What's your word? You have you got anything for us?
Calvin Shirk:No, give it your best. The people will feel you out right away, whether you're there for just trying to get this job done and onto the next one, or if you're actually giving them your full attention to the jobs done. And I guess one of the ways I pull this off. About three years ago I started self-dispatching, just simply it worked better for our whole our way of doing things and with that.
Calvin Shirk:So I get a little more customer contact. But I also learn pretty quick to let my phone in the truck when I'm on a job. So it does two things Half the time. If the phone did ring, it was a spam caller anyway, and now you quit work for that. But even if it's a customer, now I'm stopping work where I'm at and delaying finishing that job till I get to the next one, or even plan the next one where, if I just make everybody wait till I'm back on the road, now that customer that I was just at feels valued because I stayed on the job till it was done. Yep, and the next guy. You know he's not going to get his shed any sooner than he would otherwise, actually maybe a tad touch sooner because I didn't spend 10 or 20 minutes on the phone with him while I should have been working.
Calvin Shirk:yep, so for me it's just been helpful all along to just let the phone in the truck. Now, if I got to go back for a drink or whatever, I will check, you know, and if there's a message I need to get back to right away, I will do that, but I won't specifically go back to the truck just to check my phone. Yeah, yep.
Sam Byler:Yeah, years ago. I mean, phones were already a thing, so it wasn't that terrible long ago. But I remember somebody in a training seminar I don't even remember where I was some somebody from a podium was talking about the fact that if you can't, if you can't stick with the ones that are in front of you right now, like if you get sidetracked from who's in your vision right now, then you'll never take care of the ones that you're letting interrupt who you're with right now, because at some point you're in front of them.
Calvin Shirk:Exactly.
Sam Byler:Um, you know, we, we use that same philosophy a lot of times. Sometimes, aaron and I, you know, when we go out to eat, we're both on our phones. Sometimes, when Karen and I go go out to eat, we're both on our phones. Sometimes, when karen and I go out to eat, we're both on our phones. But sometimes we, we just, and sometimes we don't even like talk about it, it's just a a given. You lay the phone down over there, she lays her phone down, and you just focus on the now. And who's there? You know?
Sam Byler:Um, so some people would come into a restaurant and they'd see us as a couple and they'd be like, oh man, that couple, they sat there on their phones all night. They don't even think or care about each other, you know. And then the next time we go in there and the phones lay down there, oh man, that couple doesn't even look at their phone. You never know, but you have to be in the now sometimes, and I agree with you, if you're dealing with a customer, this is the same thing for when you're selling a building as it is for when you're setting up a building.
Sam Byler:If you're selling a building and you stop with that customer in the middle of a sale to take a phone call. If you want to do that, you're 100% welcome to do that. But that is not me and that's not the way my customers would get treated. I'm gonna finish up with what I'm doing. I might answer it and say hey, I need to call you right back. I'm with a customer right now. If, if I feel like it's one of those customers that I need to do that, like if I've talked to them before or whatever but if they can't respect that, I don't really want to deal with them.
Calvin Shirk:People anyway that's a key phrase right there. Not every customer uh, not every customer that comes through your door is your customer yeah, that's true too.
Sam Byler:We've had those, hey you ever. Okay, let's go back. Let's go back to deliveries. You ever get that feeling in the middle of a delivery. I should just load this shed up and take it back home. And then six weeks later you're like why didn't I just do what I knew. I felt like I needed to do.
Calvin Shirk:That's a fair question and it's not one that I necessarily can think of a time when I had to do that or wish I would have done that, and I think credit to the salespeople that I've worked with that have done their due diligence.
Calvin Shirk:So shout out to my salespeople and not not just at my current company but at previous companies too that did their homework and connected well with the customer that the expectations were properly set. I mean not saying we never had a hiccup and that's not what I'm saying, but the expectations by and large were set properly, that when we got there, that we were good to go, yeah.
Sam Byler:I've had haulers call me back and or even pilot cars call me back and be like we probably shouldn't have delivered that one. And I'm like yeah, you know what's the deal. They're like no, we'll just bet a steak dinner on it. Let's see what happens. It's seldom that they're wrong.
Sam Byler:It's been wrong a couple of times. I actually I owed my son a couple of steak dinners when he was helping me. We'd pack up and leave and I'd be like I'll bet wrong a couple times. I actually owed my son a couple steak dinners when he was helping me. We'd pack up and leave and I'd be like I'll bet you a steak dinner, I'm going back to get that one. And there's a couple times I was wrong, but not very often.
Sam Byler:And it's what you said about a shout-out to your salespeople is a huge thing. We were hauling for a couple companies that it was sell, sell, sell, sell. It didn't matter, sell it whatever you had to do. You know make the down payments for them, all kinds of goofy stuff going on and you know it, it's. It's like it's like running a six-week russian roulette that you know gun's going to go off and pop you back because it's it's not going to work. You know, and it. It is a big deal, in my opinion, to work for a company that cares about their customers, cares about their sales enough to where you, as a hauler, can say that that's a big deal.
Calvin Shirk:But I think back. You know there's times when I did some in my previous company. Where it was, I wouldn't be surprised we're back for this one. And there was a few that, like you just said, that we did go back, and then there were some that I figured we'd hear from them and never did so it does work both ways.
Sam Byler:It does.
Calvin Shirk:Yep.
Sam Byler:Anything else you want to get out there?
Calvin Shirk:It does. Yep, anything else you want to get out there. There's one thing that I've thought of if I ever get a chance to do an interview on a podcast like this with the haulers, and that's one that I've felt I've learned from somebody else and I pass on and that's how to leave a voicemail that you get a good response from. Oh, and you start out when you let a voicemail for a customer. At least, this is my way and I think is. I mean, I've got excellent callback from if I let a voicemail. So to get back to where I was is first, when you call a guy, if you're leaving a voicemail, identify yourself and let your phone number as your second thing that you're saying that way, if they missed whatever else, your other introduction was they don't have to wait to the end to find your phone number again. So now follow through on this. Oh yeah.
Calvin Shirk:I'm with you when you're done letting your voicemail, letting your message, when you finish up, re-identify yourself. Yep, this is Calvin at Helmuth Builders. My number is. Give it once and then again. That's the second time you slow down and say it a little more enunciated Yep, and what that does is, once in a while it's not as much as it was back in the first days of cell phones, but if a cell phone blips out and they miss a digit somewhere or they're trying to write it down, that second time and what was the last? Three again?
Calvin Shirk:or last four. You just gave it to them twice so and you slowed down a second time so they got your phone number. So it's rare that I would hear anything that well I couldn't get your number or whatever like that. My voicemail covers the way I let. A voicemail covers what it takes to get a good call back.
Sam Byler:Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you. I had something happen to me a couple weeks ago that I thought was pretty cool. I had a uh, a delivery driver call me about a delivery and he did the same thing identified himself, told me what he was doing, left his number again and I don't know if they had it automated or if he had a template set up. Richard talks about templates all the time, but I don't feel like I had hung up for more than five seconds and I got a text message his name, company and his phone number. I was like, oh, that's sweet, because now I know he actually can text as a truck driver some of them, you know, can or can't but now I've actually got his number right and all I gotta do is click on that. Now I've got his number and you know, I just replied back thanks. Never heard back from him again. Two days later, you know, 30 minutes before he was supposed to show up, he sent me an eta and we were good to go and it was done.
Sam Byler:This was after we had tried to have this little hood delivered six times from other drivers with this bunch and this guy had taken it upon himself to set it up and be a little more professional about it and got it done. No, no issues, no problems. I'm like that is what I'm talking about when it comes to the delivery driver, Somebody who just goes one step further than his standard company, did you know, and got it done. Sure, so yeah that's good.
Calvin Shirk:That's one thing, you know. I realize a lot of people are moving away from voicemail too. So while I leave a good voicemail that I have a good chance of a callback. If I need to hear from them sooner, I'll turn around and send them a text, because I get a lot higher return yet on a text message than I do on voicemail.
Sam Byler:Oh, we found that out in the mountains of Asheville big time. Oh, my word, you, you know you came up there and helped us some up there while we were working there. But it was amazing to me the amount of people up there. Well, I mean, I found out when I was out there delivering sheds in some of those places. You could call and call, and call and call until they got out of that place and up on top of the hill. They weren't going to get it anyway. You sent them a text message first time. They drove up on top of the hill bloop. Now they got their text message and I, you know it, it didn't take me. I, I don't think I'll.
Sam Byler:I dealt with a week up there before I switched at all the text message. We wouldn't even take calls anymore. Um, first of all, my, my phone was blowing up and there wasn't no way I could keep up with it. But second, I went from five or six calls per person to one text message and sometimes it'd be two days later. They'd answer and they'd be like oh, yes, yes, I still want one. I just went into town and finally got service. It's like, oh, oops.
Calvin Shirk:You made an excellent point there. Uh, and and I'll ask a customer, if you know we may we have a phone conversation and then we're still in the scheduling process. I'll ask them is it okay if I text you back and 90 of the time or 95 of the time?
Sam Byler:absolutely yeah, that's a good idea.
Calvin Shirk:The reason I'm bringing this point up is it takes you 10 to 30 seconds to get a text out oh yeah you know, effectively communicate via text where you get them on the phone. It's anywhere from five minutes to 30 minutes, just to get that 30 second message out no kidding. So as self-dispatch. That's important to me.
Sam Byler:Add a couple haulers we know and I don't know how they're never off the phone, Not going to mention any name shots Sorry haulers, shots fired. I tell you, some of them boys, they got way too much time on their hands, I guess. Well, they're all going around with that thing you got on your head. So they just literally talk to each other all day long and I'm like buddy, I'm sorry I don't wear one of them things and I don't have that kind of time and I get it.
Calvin Shirk:I don't necessarily care to wear this thing all day, but the children were out playing here earlier.
Sam Byler:I'm out back in the swing set it makes it so much easier on you it's easier, and the noise canceling feature.
Calvin Shirk:My boss actually commented we do a weekly sales meeting. He's like that headset you got. He said that's really good. He's like I don't hear the truck in the background. You're clear, yep, so yeah.
Sam Byler:So what are you?
Calvin Shirk:running what I have on my head. Yeah, what is it? Blue Parrot 450.
Sam Byler:Okay, yep, I'm still a fan of Blue Parrots being some of the best noise canceling ones out there.
Calvin Shirk:I know I've watched the recent discussion. There's some others I'd like to try out that are a little bit cheaper. That sounded like, have some good reviews, but right now I didn't take the time to get on amazon. My time home's too valuable to do a lot of that so the headset gets lost I finally lost one here recently, like I don't know where that one got to. Well, the quickest thing is hit the truck, stop and get another one, and get another one.
Sam Byler:Yes, sir, I agree. Well, man, you don't know how much I appreciate you coming on, always wanted to hear a little more about your story, where you're going and what you. You know what you're up to or whatever. Um, I wish you all the best. Um, I think what you're, what you guys do as a company up there, is phenomenal. Love those dudes, love you guys. What you're doing with your family is great Love.
Sam Byler:You know there's people talk all the time about all the bad stuff that happens on social media or whatever, but for us guys in the shed industry, and especially in the shed hauler industry, we can pretty much stack it all up to Facebook for having what we have, because if it wasn't for our Facebook page, the connections we make on there and taking it a step further and getting together and hanging out, you know, at the barbecues, the bashes and all the different things we do, even working with all our different vendors, that we have all the trailer supply guys, all the building, moving services and everything. It all comes from what we tie together on social media.
Calvin Shirk:Absolutely.
Sam Byler:Even the podcast is all based off of that. So yeah, thank you very much. I appreciate you very much as a friend, as a brother in Christ. I know, I know your relationship with Christ is a big thing to you. I see it all the time. We didn't really get into it this time Maybe, maybe down the road somewhere we'll get into that. We'll do a two hour one, but uh, very, very, very much appreciate you and thank you for coming on today.
Calvin Shirk:It's been an honor and a pleasure to do this, thank you.
OUTRO:Thanks again ShedP ro for being
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