Shed Geek Podcast
The Shed Geek Podcast offers an in depth analysis of the ever growing and robust Shed Industry. Listeners will experience a variety of guests who identify or specialize in particular niche areas of the Shed Industry. You will be engaged as you hear amateur and professional personalities discuss topics such as: Shed hauling, sales, marketing, Rent to Own, shed history, shed faith, and much more. Host Shannon Latham is a self proclaimed "Shed Geek" who attempts to take you through discussions that are as exciting as the industry itself. Listeners of this podcast include those who play a role directly or indirectly with the Shed Industry itself.
Shed Geek Podcast
Transforming Spaces and Building Friendships in the Shed Industry
Embark on an enlightening exploration of the shed industry as we learn from industry experts Chris Ashman of Olde Liberty Structures and Matt Eggleston from Lynchburg Transport and Timber Ridge Sheds. These two competitors-turned-friends share their unique paths and the camaraderie they've cultivated in a field that thrives on community spirit. Discover Chris's fascinating journey from the military to construction, alongside his passion for skilled trades through his apparel venture, Tools of War. Matt adds his perspective on transitioning from shed hauling to sales, providing crucial insights into the industry's dynamics and the friendships that blossom beyond competition.
Peek into the innovative world of shed-to-house conversions, a niche market offering alternative housing solutions amid rising mortgage rates and inflation. Listen as we discuss the opportunities and challenges associated with this trend, including compliance with building codes and the growing consumer interest in affordable living options like accessory dwelling units (ADUs). We also touch on the potential for enhancing shed profitability through value-added features, such as porches and decks, and the role of social media in supporting this burgeoning community.
This episode also highlights Shed Hub's game-changing role as a marketplace for connecting shed sellers and buyers, and the importance of technological tools like Shed Suite's CRM in empowering shed businesses. From fostering strong customer relationships to embracing innovative marketing strategies, we underscore the importance of integrity and customer-centric approaches in navigating the future of the industry. As we celebrate the joys of podcasting and sharing these valuable insights, our gratitude extends to our guests and listeners, as we eagerly anticipate the continued growth and evolution of the shed industry.
For more information or to know more about the Shed Geek Podcast visit us at our website.
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To suggest show topics or ask questions you want answered email us at info@shedgeek.com.
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Studio Sponsor: Union Grove Lumber
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Welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. It's going to be a fun episode today. It's probably the weirdest situation in which I've done a podcast. Well, no, that's not true. Me, Kyle and Sam did one, one time in Waco in a hotel room, but here we are again using our travels.
Shed Geek:You know, the guy wanted to charge me 50 bucks for the room and it wasn't bigger than this space and I was like, no, there's no way, we'll just use the room. So anyway, I'm cheap. I guess Chris uh, who we got on the show today, introduce yourself.
Chris:I'm Chris Ashman, um live in Bedford, Virginia, and I own Olde Liberty Structures. We build custom-built on-site sheds. We sell sheds for two manufacturers and we also sell metal buildings, and I also do residential construction as well. Perfect.
Shed Geek:And then Matt.
Matt:I'm Matt Eggleston. I own two separate companies Lynchburg Transport, I do shed hauling. I've been doing that since 2008. And just recently started selling buildings under Timber Ridge Sheds. And we're right down the road from each other in Bedford Virginia, so we're technically competitors. So, if you see, us brawl a little bit during this, it'll be expected.
Shed Geek:Competitors and friends.
Matt:Yes.
Shed Geek:Wow, what a novel idea. It's uh, that's, that's, that's. You know, that's a. It's a new thing. It's a new thing. I like it. Now I'm just kidding. Uh, I've been through Bedford a little bit. Let's see there's, there's a couple other guys up there. Uh, well, let's see the. Um, the, we're not friends with them. Yeah, well, you shouldn't be I mean, that's only the right thing to do. Yeah, let's see, was it? Uh, Cherokee, are they up there? Is that right? Does that sound right?
Shed Geek:or Shawnee Structures Shawnee don't know them, okay.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Chris:They're not friends with you either
Shed Geek:who is friends with me honestly, um, I I don't know.
Shed Geek:I know I stopped in there because, uh, me and Huxman from shed hub was running up to New York one time. We stopped in there because me and Huxman from Shed Hub was running up to New York one time we stopped in there at Bedford and we stopped at a couple different places but we almost got snowed in and about three or four months later I was back up there because of James Pate. You know he runs Creekside out of there and we did an interview with him and he was kind of connected with the uh challenger guys and that. So, we stopped him by there and he's got an awesome place and makes awesome trailers and we started building the connections between, like motts and pd weaver and how pd started out with there. And man, I'm constantly because I'm not like Ana baptist, I don't have like the, the Mennonite or Amish background, like there's so many people that know so many people and it's hard for me to connect the dots without growing up in that environment so same thing for me.
Matt:I think him too, because we're not doing any of that totally not Amish, not Amish, but have you ever been told you look Amish? Um, or has anybody ever asked you okay?
Shed Geek:yeah, yeah but now yeah, otherwise no yeah yeah well, I just wonder, especially in the industry, as you're traveling around, or if you go to like a trade show or something. Uh, but of course you're wearing, I don't know what this shirt is that you're wearing English clothing, English clothing.
Chris:This is my other company actually is it okay? So, the tools of war, and I'm an army vet and so I have an. I'm at um. I have an apparel company too. That um is geared towards the trades, so I like to celebrate the fact that I'm a carpenter and a tradesman. So, yes, I make different clothing designs for carpentry and electrical and masons and plumbers and stuff like that. And mechanics Cause Matt's also a diesel mechanic Former. Yeah, always, always one. So.
Shed Geek:I know a little bit of Chris's story, to some extent Well. Chris, we've been talking for three years.
Chris:Yeah, four years I mean we, we text pretty regularly I guess you'd say Five-minute phone calls that turn into an hour and a half.
Shed Geek:I've never talked more than five minutes on the phone with any listener here. So, tell me you kind of I won't say you got your start with John Feeley's Shed Academy those who have listened to that interview but you did go through that class, I think, but you had already so much carpentry history. Tell me your story. I'm not going to tell it. But you did go through that class, I think, but you had already so much carpentry history. Tell me your story, I'm not gonna tell yeah, no.
Chris:So, um, after I got out of the army, went in the telecom world. I got out in 2003, went into telecom and started dabbling in construction, uh, with friends of mine who built houses, and started learning from them. Got into construction in 2012, residential construction and started doing remodels, started getting into additions and decks and building houses and framing, and that's what I was doing until about well, I still do it. So, I'm a Class A contractor in Virginia. But, matt, how we got to know each other was he delivered a shed to my house, um, and I was already in construction and, uh, he dropped it off and I said you know, I could build these, I just don't have time and uh, you were that guy.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I was that guy. Matt's like sure you can first words when I stepped out of the truck.
Matt:I could build one of these.
Matt:I'm like five dollar for everybody, oh, man. But no, he but no, he actually did.
Matt:Yeah, he called me up later and talked about how to build them, how to make them to fit the trailer, and I gave him some pointers and I'm sitting here thinking the whole time no, this guy's not going to do that. And a month later he's like hey, I've got a shed for you to deliver.
Chris:How about that I sold my house because we were moving to South Carolina. My wife and I were, and she decided she didn't want to move to South Carolina, she wanted to stay in Virginia. So, he sold the house and the shed that he delivered got sold with the house. So, we moved to a house and I needed a shed. So, I went and bought another shed and I delivered it. And that's really when I started picking his brain about sheds. I said you know, I think I'm going to go into this business because I had slowly started closing my other one down.
Chris:I'm always like sheds because they're like mini houses. And so, the next shed that, the next time I called Matt about a shed delivery, he was delivering one of my sheds that I had built and sold. So that's kind of how I got in the shed industry. And so, when I do still sell a build a shed because I don't build very many portable sheds but when I do build one for a customer because it's custom, it's not something they can find on a shed lot. I have matt deliver it so that's my delivery guy.
Chris:Yeah, um, so we just kept that relationship going. But so that's how I got into it. I I came from houses gotcha to the shed world, but I like post frame stuff. I just like the super custom um board and batten and the stuff that you're not, you can't get down the road yeah and probably some.
Shed Geek:Uh, you know, for those who follow it, we're actually here in Greenville, South Carolina, so we're at the GSCB show, but we're uh getting ready to go over head over there. Uh, for this afternoon. But you were actually on the cover of that magazine, so if they wanted to see some of your work, you had a front page spot there.
Chris:So the December 24 issue of the magazine Garage, Shed, carport Builder Magazine one of our sheds is on there. It's at Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia, and the customer wanted a shed that was 16 by 16 with nine foot tall walls and a nine foot 12 pit or 912 pitch. So I think the overall height was like 16 feet from the floor up, so not going down the road with that. Plus it was on a um slope and the slope was like at the 16 foot front was ground level but the back was at eight feet off the ground, so it was basically the side of a cliff that we build it on. So that's kind of where we shine as a builder, because you're not getting that from a shed lot, or most shed builders are like, no, we're not doing that, so we like that stuff.
Shed Geek:Yeah, oh, that's perfect.
Shed Geek:That's awesome.
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Shed Geek:And then, Matt, let's see. I know that well, if this isn't something that you want mentioned, we can edit that out, but if you don't, however, it works. You're in a lot that used to be occupied, but a lot of people know Gavin Morley, Correct, Gavin was running a sales lot and now he's got more opportunity and doing some different things, but still in the shed industry. But you were hauling long before. You just hopped into sales, Is that right?
Matt:Oh, yeah, yeah. So, I got started in 2008. I left the automotive world that definitely. I enjoyed fixing things, I enjoyed the service aspect of it, for sure, but it's, it's just the whole general realm of how the automotive industry works and it wasn't for me, it was. It was changing me as a person. I didn't like that. Um, I had a friend who owned a shed lot and, of course, back in 2008, there wasn't a whole lot of contractor drivers around, it was mostly you owned a sales lot, you had the inventory on wholesale and you had your own truck and your own delivery equipment. He had a driver that was in the Air Force and was being reassigned to North Carolina, so he knew he was going to lose him in a few months. So, I told him, I said, well, I'll come drive for you for a little bit and haul some sheds until I figure out what I want to do so we can get you another driver and get him trained up and I guess the rest is history.
Shed Geek:Yeah, that's what Been delivering ever since 15 years ago or longer, about 17,. Yeah, something like that, wow, so what made you take the jump from hauling into sales?
Matt:Well, it was something that my wife and I had always discussed, that we would like to own a sales lot one day. But I hauled for most everybody around me and I'm really good friends with a lot of the dealers. I couldn't open a lot and compete with these people that I've known for so many years and I just didn't want to step on anybody's toes. I'm friends with them. I'm still good friends with him and with Gavin's situation. I know he had a couple of personal issues and stuff that's not my story to tell, but he was trying to do some different things.
Matt:It looked like he was going to be moving out of state but that ended up falling through and he decided to go a different route and rather than close that sales lot down, I just told the Amish company that I was hauling for that lot. I said why don't you give me a chance to run it? You know, I've always wanted to do this. You know worst case scenario. We shut it down in nine months anyways. You know no big deal and he's like sure, go for it.
Matt:So we took it on and been trying to sail it ever since.
Shed Geek:Yeah, it's seeing the cross between hauling and sales and, like some of you, know what I've. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel like I've seen more guys jump from hauling into sales than sales to hauling.
Matt:I don't know. I've noticed that trend quite a bit in the last few years. Yeah.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I don't, I will, and I tend to think maybe a lot of it is because if you already have the skill of of hauling, if you don't know how to sell sheds, you can typically figure it out, learn how to sell sheds, but you're able to conversate with the customer at a much more high level of what can be done for transportation-wise, because the salespeople, we leave that out a lot.
Matt:Well, half of sales is product knowledge. Yeah, and as a hauler, if you don't understand the product you're hauling, then you're really not good at it either. Yeah, it's kind of if you've been hauling for a while and you understand the product, you understand how they're constructed and how they're set up and all that, you're already halfway there can I?
Chris:can I add to that? Yeah, so I had a shed lot as well, um, and I got out of that because I didn't enjoy sitting at a shed lot all day long. I like swinging hammers around, but while at the shed lot, we live in an area that's not flat right. We have mountains and we have a lot of rock, and just Bedford County in Virginia it's flat on one side and we're on the east slope of the Blue Ridge Mountains and on the other side it's pretty hilly and stuff.
Chris:So that, all being said, a lot of times you get customers that come in they don't know whether they can have a shed delivered to their yard or not, because the terrain access or whatever. So, I would call Matt a couple times because the when I had my shed lot, we had factory drivers and if they said we couldn't get a shed in, I would call matt like, hey, do you think we can get a shed in or not? And he would look it up on the map and be like, oh yeah, we can get that in, no problem. Um, there's been times where Matt would pick up a shed without his mule and I'm like, bro, I think you need a mule to get the shed in there. And he goes, nah, I looked it up on Google Maps, I don't need a mule. And he didn't need the mule and I'm like, wow, okay. So, I think that's a huge benefit for him running a shed lot is he's able to sell sheds that other shed lots would basically say, oh, we can't get the shed in there.
Shed Geek:yeah, so to me I mean that's bad, no it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great value add, it's a great value proposition to have as a you know, and just another product based off of your, your history of you know. It would be a lot harder for me to start learning how to uh deliver sheds. I've been on some deliveries. I've even carried some block. Look out, guys, I'm a honorary shed hauler because I carried some block.
Shed Geek:But no, look, we tried, we had a truck and trailer and mule. We ended up hiring somebody to do that and realized it wasn't our space to be in pretty much immediately Like we were sales and marketing was more our area. But I think it's easier to transition once you already know that craft into sales than it is for sales to learn the trade of um, of hauling. But we've talked about it several times on the show before and I'm assuming you guys agree. It's really just good for those personalities to connect because, uh, you just don't you at least need to take a ride with a shed hauler once a year to kind of see what they do if you're a sales person.
Matt:In my opinion, I've had some fantastic dealers that I've hauled for in the past and some of them not so fantastic. I think, yeah, anybody that's hauled for any length of time has had both sides of that, and the ones that have been really good to work with have always been very cautious about what to tell the customer they're not going to over promise them anything and they will definitely call me if they have a question or they're not sure.
Shed Geek:They're not just going to say something to get to sale and move on yeah and I've always appreciated that and I appreciate those dealers for sure I think the temptation is just there to get that sale, close that sale and make a promise hey, we can do anything. But I don't know. There's a lot of talented haulers but sometimes you ask a lot of them, um, just to get the sale, and maybe it's easier to make sure, and I don't know. I think that's just a lack of training from the commitment from the manufacturer, when they open up the dealers, to be like hey, I know you want to sell, but we've got to do it the right way.
Matt:It's a common joke amongst a lot of the haulers that we're the ones that train the dealers, not the manufacturer. We get a new dealer and it's like I'm training a new dealer this week and it's kind of unique where I'm located because I haul for multiple different manufacturers and there's eight shed lots right there right around in Bedford County.
Chris:Or a rock.
Matt:you hit a shed I deliver for all, but maybe two of them. So, one of them can sell an 8x12 and then this one over here can sell a 10x16, and I can get them both in the same day. I can be on four different sales lots and deliver four different manufacturers' buildings in the same day. Yeah.
Matt:So they also know that if they lose that customer because it can't go in the yard, that they're not going to go to the guy down the street it either, because if I can't get it in for them, then I can't get it in for those other guys either yeah, yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense situation there for them.
Shed Geek:Well, it is. And I'm you know what are we? 15 minutes in, I realized how big of an idiot I am now that you guys keep saying Bedford county, Virginia, and the whole time I was thinking Bedford, Pennsylvania. Yeah, I'm like, that's why I'm thinking of James and everything else and I'm like why? Why do they not know any of the rest of these guys? And I'm like, oh, it's because they're probably 100 miles away. So yeah, um, I'm, I had Bedford, just uh, pa, on the mind, but uh, we're from the Bedford the bed.
Chris:They're original Bedford. Yeah, you're the og. Yeah, you're the og, it's actually my. The name of my company is after the original name of Bedford. Um, so Bedford used to be called old liberty and in 1890 they changed it to Bedford, so that's why my company Did you know that I did not yeah, that's why.
Shed Geek:Look at you being all creative and everything. So, what's y'all's experience been like so far? Matt, I see you on Facebook. We haven't had a chance to develop as much of a friendship. Chris, I've known for quite some time so I've kind of kind of know your story a little bit just from talking to you. But, like, what's your, what's your experience? Tell you, you know we're going to see moving forward for the shed industry. Yeah.
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Chris:You know, I'll tell you were talking about. We were talking about the experience and the knowledge of a shed dealer who's a?
Chris:hauler and I didn't have any of that experience as a hauler. I remember seeing his trailer for the first time. I was like man, that's pretty cool seeing how it all articulates and the tail moves and all that. That's pretty neat. But from my experience that I've seen as a dealer and having a lot and in the shed industry is the lack of knowledge on the construction side that a lot of people are selling okay um, so I'm.
Chris:I'm on Facebook too. You know different groups and I see all the nightmares people are now having with their sheds, molding because they turn them into houses. Um, and on, I'm on the, so I'm on the side where I'm like there's a lot you need to do to a shed before you live in it. You know, because a house is completely the standards, the codes are completely different. The framing for a shed is on par, um, you know, in the industry, but it's like the, the moisture control, the vapor barrier, the soffits and ridge vents.
Chris:And should you insulate radiant barrier or not? You should not insulate a radiant barrier. Um, you know. So, you know, and him and I, we talk about that sometimes too, and it's like I feel there should definitely be some kind of training or knowledge. Um, when it comes to constructing a shed at the forefront, when you know somebody's trying to turn it into a shed, to house conversion, um, and being able to talk to your shed manufacturer and say, hey, we're going to need this size rafters or we need tyvek wrap on this building before it's built, insulated windows and doors, things like that, because these people want to turn it into a living space um.
Chris:So that's a tough one for me, watching just sheds rolling off the shed lot or going into the market and then people, and that the dealer doesn't know. Like you know, a lot of times customers don't tell the dealer about what's going on, but down the road they try to turn it into a house and then they wind up having a nightmare.
Shed Geek:Well, especially you know if that customer is purchasing on rent down. Right.
Shed Geek:You have two mixtures of dealers out there, in my opinion. You have, like the dealers who hold the fort down and say, sorry, that's not allowed, unfortunately. Down and say sorry, that's not allowed, unfortunately we can't do that. And then of course you have some dealers who are like, what you do with it's not my business. I get my you know my paycheck if I sell you this thing and then it's their problem to move on. So, it depends on who you're partnering with and what they're. You know what, what sort of their standard is or for how they sell. But I'm assuming that you are probably on like the shed Shed to House private groups and stuff like that.
Chris:You watch the drama on those and I read them and I rub my head. I'm like, oh, because you see on there so many people that do well with it. But then you see others where they're like I was getting water coming through my drywall and I didn't know why. I thought my roof was leaking and their wall is sweating behind the drywall, between the insulation, the radiant barrier and the drywall, and people are like what do I do? What do?
Chris:I do and I'm like you really don't want to know the answer to what you should be doing right now and again. I think it's just we're seeing mortgage rates are through the roof, people inflation's high, people are like I need a living situation. What do I do? And you know the easiest thing. And people are like, oh, go buy a shed and just live in it and turn into a house. And it's like you know there's a lot to go into that to make sure you don't have mold and you don't have all that. And I feel like, so to answer your question down the road, can I play more of a role in helping people with that?
Chris:Um, you know I'm a huge fan of value added to sheds. You know, like adding porches. After the fact, I have people I tell them I say, look, sometimes I'll have a shed delivered and then I'll go back and put a porch added to it or a deck added to it, but I make sure that I get it built the way it should be built before it's delivered, so it's easier. So, I'm not taking stuff off in order to do that. There's a lot of value-added stuff out there that the shed industry can get involved in to make more money off the back end. You know, underpinning, skirting, just whatever Mini splits, things like that. I mean that are DIY, easy stuff, you know, and just trying to help people steer in that direction. I feel like a lot of people ask me that stuff through Facebook messages.
Shed Geek:You got my, you got my. My mind running a hundred mile an hour with, like the possibility of whenever I look, whenever I get, on my user big one.
Chris:You know, you know how do you, how do you get in the ADU world, you know, and so I have a lot of people ask me that question too.
Shed Geek:Well, the shed to house thing always intrigues me, because you always have like, uh, it's, it's, it almost serves as a decent lead gen, uh, for some companies. You see a lot of the big companies on there and they've got dealers or reps to some extent on there and then of course they, uh, if they have a satisfactory experience with the customer, the customer ends up, you know, kind of promoting that same company over and over and over and you sort of see, you know, like I went there and it was terrible. I went there, it was good, well, we had that company and it was terrible, we had to go with this company and then the rent-owned companies get on there and then everybody starts to infiltrate it and try to uh, move it in some direction. I, I just get on there and watch. I've not reached out to the admins any of that, to you know.
Shed Geek:But I wonder, how much do they know about shed construction or the shed world? Or is their passion really just trying to explain how to turn a shed into a house and making sure to do so if that's like a full, all-out cash purchase versus rent to own? Do they even know? That's why a lot of these buildings go missing, or people you know fill them up, or you know with electric and plumbing and everything else, and then they shade tree it. You know what I mean. So, it's not done right, is you, don't? I mean? Why would you even want it back because you got to tear everything out and cut?
Matt:it and start over. Yeah, so it's all in the wall.
Shed Geek:Yeah it's, it's, it's. So. What you're saying is like really intriguing to me, because I'm thinking, wow, what? Why aren't customers being educated on this if they are able to cash, buy and then turn it into something, or if they're able to finance, and more traditional finance, because rent on is not going to allow them to live in it, but like if they can do it why don't they have a place, a blueprint, a book to go to some kind of place, a podcast act, whatever you know, information well, there is so in the international residential code.
Chris:Appendix q talks about tiny houses and the square footage. So, anything 400 square feet and under is considered a tiny house. So that fits most sheds. But the code the only thing it gives variance on are ceiling heights. So, you, the lowest you can have a ceiling height in a tiny house is six foot four and it has to be in a non-livable room.
Chris:So, living, livable rooms are like the living room and like a bedroom but like a kitchen, can be six foot four, but the other rooms have to be six foot eight. Ceiling height gives variances for the staircase. Like you know, in the, in a residential it's six and a half to eight inches right for, for your um, for your rise on a set of stairs, where in a tiny house, on their appendix q I think, it's like 20 inches, like, you can actually have a 20 inch step and you don't have to have as deep of tread. Um gives you variances for egress for, like in sleeping lofts and things like that, but it doesn't give any variances for vapor barrier, for the building envelope, insulation, it doesn't give any variances for that, and I think that's where people miss out because they don't understand the building envelope and all that.
Chris:So, that being said, should there be like some kind of advisory board that gets set up where manufacturers can say hey, you know, we're getting tiny house requests. We need to figure out this information, because the manufacturers may just not know, because they've just been building sheds for so long, yeah, that they've just got into that, and the codes have changed. Like every couple years that date the state adopts a different code, so it's constantly changing. So maybe an advisory board so they can educate the manufacturer, the manufacturer can educate the dealer and the dealer can pass that information to the customer. But it just might be I just want to sell a shed and I don't really care what you do once it leaves the lot, or they just don't know
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Shed Geek:do you think? Do you think, uh, there's room for, like, a trade association there could be. I mean, we I talked about it with Jared Ledford, uh, who's going to be doing the Steel Kings podcast, and they focus a little bit more primarily on, like, your steel buildings and things like that. They sell sheds as well too, but he's just always, you know, like, look, I'm not going to do it, I don't have the time, there's just no way. I mean, I'd love to do it, I'd love to organize something like that. I think it'd be awesome like that, I think it'd be awesome, I think it's needed too, uh, but you know what all falls underneath it. You know, in that trade organization does hauling, you know, fall in it, because hauling's already got. They're pretty much established with the. You know the brotherhood and, like, all the things that they do and all that stuff, brotherhood it's uh it's building you need the building, brother he's on the shed haulers brotherhoods.
Chris:Like you're on the board, yeah yeah.
Shed Geek:So, I mean, like there again they, they've got that sort of established already, so like would it? Would it fall under like how would you do it if you did a trade association?
Chris:I don't know um, I just have knowledge when it comes to that stuff. But as far as the other the organization, like yeah well live organization, but the whole. You know electronics and stuff behind it. How to you know market things like that. That's there's people with. They have way more knowledge than that. But you know, it's not just sheds, it's also, um, you know we're at the jeep, what is it? Garage shed, carport, expo and barn dominiums are another one.
Chris:Yeah, and matt just is matt's building one, but there's a lot of localities. They just don't understand barn dominiums. They don't understand that you can do things with them other than just metal siding. You know, there's all kinds of stuff you can do with them, but there's also a science behind them, you know, and a lot of people don't understand it. Um, the other one turning, and that's the post frame, like he has a wood framed, basically a post frame, pole barn type house, barn dominium. But people are now buying metal buildings to turn into barn dominiums.
Chris:You know, and you know what do you do for that. What's the risk code?
Shed Geek:they just don't have the information right and so but.
Chris:But the metal building companies are trying to figure out how do you cross that bridge? How do you transition from people who just wanted a garage and we have crews that just go out and throw these buildings up because they're used to that. Right, it's assembly line mentality. Yeah, well, I really want a stone wings coating on my building. And then it just comes down to halfway with metal, with Z, and they're like our install crews can't do that stuff. Yeah, you know. So, do they engage in more relationships with general contractors that can? They can wink with and say hey, you know what this person wants a barn dominium. We're going to design one for him, but our crew, our crews, can't install these because they just don't, they're just not there, you know, is that something you do? I don't know.
Chris:I think there's a, I think there's a world. I feel like America's kind of moving past the stick built frame comp. Well, not moving past it, but it's. It's slowly getting to where a lot of more and more people are wanting their barn dough or a tiny house, or a shed conversion or what have you? Uh, or a Connex container turned into a house. That's another one right there. Yeah, um, I feel like maybe it's the uh, the what's, what's the unconventional living conditions?
Shed Geek:I'm curious do you guys see it well, because you, you, you have sort of like a barndo, yes, um, so like. Do you think that people see it as a uh, more of a price point thing, you know, because it's not necessarily like cheaper to go that route, so it's not a money thing, right? I?
Matt:guess it depends. For us it was a little bit about price. We paid somebody to dry it in. Put the main frame up and dry it in and then from there I'm doing the rest myself. But I have the skills to do the plumbing, the electrical and the inside framing and all that. But not everybody does um, for us it was about price and we liked the.
Matt:You know the long-term, you know metal, metal roofing lasts probably forever if you take care of it, so that that, for us, was what we were after, was something that was truly low maintenance and this, hopefully, is our forever home.
Shed Geek:So, we were trying to do it right and take our time and go about it well, and I guess you know you can build a house the way you want it to anyway, but there's so much space inside of something like a barn doe yeah, you know you say so.
Chris:Your whole roof load is sitting on the posts. There's no, there's no interior load-bearing walls.
Matt:Yeah, we could put the walls anywhere we wanted to. Yeah, there is no. Yeah, you could set them anywhere, design them anywhere you want to right.
Chris:So, when you're building a more traditional house, a stick built house, you have to frame the walls and the interior walls before you set your roof. With a barn doe you can set all your exterior walls and your roof and get it completely dried and then under roof before you even worry about the inside. Yeah, that's you know. And then once you're in there, you could say you know what? And you get a good look at it and say you know, I don't really like the floor plan that I thought I was going to go with. Let's go ahead and bump this room, make this this size, or let's move our kitchen completely over there. You know, I'm like well, the hard part about that is you already have your plumbing in the floor, but sometimes you pour your concrete even after the walls are up.
Chris:Ours was that way, so you can literally even do all your rough plumbing in the floor still before you pour the final slab.
Matt:We were out there digging trenches, putting pipe in, and it was pouring down rain outside, so we were perfectly fine under cover we needed to.
Shed Geek:No, you can see why especially more rural America is moving in that direction. You know, obviously you've got, you know, things that you got to uh accommodate and HOAs and things like that.
Chris:But we're looking at doing, possibly in Virginia near the lake, a barn dominium subdivision. Okay, so it's basically, I don't know, that's kind of something that's in the works. It's pretty cool. I'll tell you about on the car ride home, but uh, yeah, so it'll be. It's a, you know, we're talking about it and it's a little subdivision. That would be just barn dominiums. Huh, I know I think it's awesome.
Shed Geek:Well, there's. There's nothing but potential whenever you're in the, the carpentry trade in general, because you can, you can cross promote into other areas if you're a home builder a lot of home builders have called us and talked to us today. We, we listen to the podcast. We want to know a little bit more about how to get into, uh, you know, sheds, just because they're maybe starving for work or growing or whatever it is, and they're like we there's, and vice versa, I'm assuming. But if you're in carpentry you can. You can kind of figure it out pretty quick from one to the next.
Shed Geek:What's interesting to me is like the metal. Like we were doing a marketing presentation at a dealer day yesterday. It's the reason why we couldn't make it down for the first day of the GSCB show. But that company is actually, you know, rolling their own metal. Now you know they've gotten large enough to roll their own metal and they're like, hey, we're rolling our own metal. All we got to do is start throwing that metal on these square tubes. They got to figure out square tube. Of course. They uh purchased a versa bin from one of our uh advertisers. Uh, window hostage there at versa bin in N orth Carolina and um boom, now that you're rolling your own metal, you can take care. You know it's a lot cheaper for you to just roll it out for your own sheds. Now you can also have a whole carport division yeah.
Chris:So, I just ran into another uh guy and his son yesterday at the show. Um, they're in Madison Heights, Virginia, and they were just signing the deal for a rolling machine roll forming machine they want to start roll forming metal, and near us in Virginia so I got his contacts I was like, well, there's nothing wrong with having another price option.
Chris:So, I kind of see that trend too. You know, because, um, being in the metal building world myself as a dealer, um, around us there's one location where all the metal comes from and, um, sometimes it's really hard to get a grip on. Customer service. Scheduling is tough because we're hours from where the metal is coming from, you know. So, for us it's really hard to kind of control a job, schedule a job or even, you know, deal with the customers, like, oh, they didn't show up today, oh, they didn't show up today. And so, I think having more manufacturers spread out, kind of like the shed industry, has started doing, you know, you can be more productive because there's more install crews in other areas of the country than just one area of North Carolina that could be able to do building. So, I think it would help out the metal building industry having more manufacturing scattered around the country to help with that.
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Shed Geek:I think it even goes Matt beyond like uh, beyond just metal. I mean, a lot of these guys are getting into trusses or have been in trusses for a long time. I mean, there's just, uh, you can be a shed builder and still, uh, have multiple other things going on that simultaneously kind of benefit the purpose for which you might buy a metal roller or something like that.
Matt:I mean, those are, those are an investment, yeah it is an investment but, like any tool, if you, if it's used in multiple industries and you purchase that tool for your industry, and then you start realizing, hey, now I can actually make a little extra money or you know whatever, with this side too, and kind of diversify yourself what you're doing have more multiple streams of income from different areas.
Shed Geek:Set up a carport division, do it right. The carport side has always seemed to struggle. So, if you can provide the customer service and the logistics of making it happen, I say they've struggled. I mean, there's some good companies out there, don't get me wrong. It's just that we've all heard the horror stories of the customer service side. It seems, at least in my opinion, my experience, let me say that my experience has been that even the least organized shed manufacturer does oftentimes a better job than sometimes the most organized metal manufacturer when it comes to customer service. And not hating on them because, again, we're doing a podcast on it, you know what?
Shed Geek:I mean like we want to talk about those things and interview people try to figure out how we improve that, because sheds and metal carports and things like that all these row farmers and other conversations to start to come in. They become like, if not sister, companies, they become like cousins of kind of what we do.
Chris:It's hard to find a shed dealer anymore that doesn't sell carboards, right, who knows, maybe that's going to be barn does one day, maybe that's going to be metal building, I don't know double-edged garages those are pretty cool, those are getting popular too, you know another thing too that I found and I was just thinking about this as we were talking I think the industry has there's so much more to the industry than I think the industry realizes. You know, like there's a lot of people out there that have sheds. They've had them for years, yeah, and they're like man, I wish I could have that on my shed because that wasn't available then. Right, and they're like well, where do I go get that type? And I can explain more about that off podcast, because it's kind of ideas I have um, sometimes you got to keep some things protected, yeah, yeah, um, but you know. But I'm gonna go back to the metal, because when I was a dealer and I had a lot, I had metal buildings on my lot and I've had countless people that would come up to me and say you know, I have an old carport and I want to enclose it in, but I don't, but I don't have any metal studs on the end to make a garage out of it.
Chris:What do I do? I always steered them towards just framing it in wood, but they're like no, I really want the base round, I really want the metal, but it's like you cannot. Where do you go get that. You know what I mean. So that's another reason why I think more manufacturer facilities that are more regionally located could tell a customer hey, you know what? Um, I'm in Bedford right there's a guy in Madison Heights that manufactures building. You can go get legs from him and base rail and metal and finish off your building, but nobody's driving to mount airy, North Carolina, to go get that material because they might be three hours from there and how am I going to get it home?
Chris:you know what I mean. But a guy in Madison Heights who's like 45 minutes away from us, you could just drop it at the guy's house, you know what I mean. So just kind of those accessory things, because people you have older stuff and they want to be able to upgrade it or finish it off themselves instead of buying another building. I don't know, it's just a thought, I know I like it.
Shed Geek:It really depends on like to me, on if you're sort of have like that, um, I'm a new construction mentality kind of manufacturer or don't mind doing remodel, right, because you kind of got to hit somewhere in between those two and let's say that you're the new construction mindset. So, you're a new construction uh mindset dealer, meaning I only want to sell you new stuff. If you come in and you're like, hey, how do I get these uprights here to go on the end, you know what I mean the square tubing, how do I get it? And then I've got to know what the order was. Was this 2 1⁄2 inch? Was it 2 1⁄4? Was it 12 gauge, 14 gauge?
Shed Geek:You've got to have at least a little bit of knowledge or you maybe have to go out and look at it which you know what. Honestly, it should blend well enough anyway, regardless of which one it is. But it's like, do you want to deal with that? Because you could be a shed manufacturer and you could just buy a whole bunch of that square tubing and keep it around. That's a nice little extra job if you want to put in the work. I know dealers right now that sell metal and they get the rent-owned company to sell and they say, hey, we'll go take it down. If the company won't, we'll go take it down. You've got to label everything, align the screw holes up, right for it to go back up. But they'll go out and they'll buy it for pennies on the dollar. And then they'll go out and like, move these things, but they're not afraid to work Right.
Chris:Well, the other thing is they want to add a lean-to to an established metal building already. No metal building company is going to go add a lean-to to somebody else's building. Yeah, yeah Right.
Shed Geek:They want all new work, right. But they want all new work Right.
Chris:But if you had, somebody who would be willing to go do that and get the parts to do it. There's a niche for that company.
Matt:Yeah, because that's something that's untouched. All of these industries are geared towards efficiency, so everybody is subcontracted. The installers are subcontracted, the dealers are subcontractors, so just like the shed industry.
Matt:And something that you can't control is the remodel side. There is no set time frame where this is going to take this long, it's going to take this amount of materials. There's no way to gauge that. And when you're running with new stuff all the time, everything is set. You know the set size and the set price for this and that, and it's hard to be efficient when you're doing the remodel side. So, somebody that's doing the new stuff all the time, am I not close enough? Somebody that's doing the new stuff all the time Am.
Matt:I not close enough, I was just bringing it up a little bit. Somebody that's doing new stuff all the time doesn't want to deviate from that because it totally wrecks their momentum. I guess is what I'm saying.
Shed Geek:Yeah, I get it. I don't know if a trade organization is the answer to all of the things that we're discussing today, but there's got to be somebody who has like so look the information. If you have the information, you know you can make a living off of that. It's really just about like trying to figure out how to navigate, getting in front of people. People have questions that you guys are talking about here all the time, but they don't necessarily have one source of truth to go to get that, to get that answer, you gotta have a book, you gotta have a, you know, audio book, a book, a paperback book, a podcast. You gotta have, um, I don't know, I'm trying to think of your magazine. You know other, other outlets or ways that you can get the information and the content out there. Of course, if, but hey, what?
Matt:are you gonna accurate? Yeah?
Shed Geek:that's always important.
Matt:That's the problem with Facebook.
Shed Geek:Yeah.
Matt:Spray, foam guys know it all. They're experts in every trade.
Shed Geek:Oh shots fired. You're a spray foam guy. You've been called out today.
Chris:I have a really good buddy of mine who's a spray foam guy and he's an amazing guy, like he really is.
Chris:Oh, don't try to backtrack, no, no, he's right though, but damage is done but he does spray foam and all and fiberglass and blown in insulation walls. I mean it's, it's amazing the insulation options that are out there. Um, and the building envelope. And this guy's a whiz at this and he knows like that like he, I think he sleeps and breathes building envelope. He's my go-to guy.
Chris:So I feel I feel like that's the cool thing is like the like he, I think he sleeps and breathes building envelope. He's my go-to guy. So I feel I feel like that's the cool thing is like you have to have the go-to guys in your pocket and establish those relationships. Like matt's my go-to guy when it comes to hauling or when a customer's asking me hey, do you have a lot? I'm like I don't have a lot, but I know a guy who does and he might have it and just you know, just kind of being able to piggyback those relationships and you know my insulation guy who knows the building envelope. I don't know everything but I know if I don't know something, I'm going to go to some people who do know what it is.
Chris:Site prep comes to mind.
Shed Geek:Yeah, you know what I mean. Well, we offer that.
Chris:So we actually. So, as a contractor, I do so for the metal buildings. I'm starting to do project management on my metal buildings. I sell, so I'll help, I'll do the customer's permitting for them, I will work with the grading and the contract, the concrete guys, the contractors, electricians, plumbers. I'll help steer that whole ship.
Chris:Because a lot of these customers are like I don't know any of that stuff and they go to a dealer and deals like I'll sell you a building and that's it. You got to figure all the rest of your out. Yeah, to me I'm like well, I don't have a lot anymore, so but what I have is Google Meet and a contractor's license and a wealth of knowledge on building, and so that's kind of where and even with sheds like where we live, a lot of times we do retaining walls with back-filled gravel to put the shed on, but you've got to have a really good shed delivery guy to be able to make sure you can get it up onto that pad. So that's where it's kind of like just having those people in your pocket that you can call and say hey, I need to question this.
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Shed Geek:I think it just comes down to if you've signed up to be a from a dealer perspective. If you signed up to be a dealer and you're just like, I'll just take what I get. I'll hang in for you whenever somebody comes in, that's fine. I'm not really engaged, though. I don't really want to learn the complexities of rent-to-own marketing finance, building codes, hauling and delivery. Look, I don't want to be bothered, I just want to get my percentage. I want to sell something, move on. I want low accountability.
Matt:I think those people are primarily there just for the money, for the job not necessarily to help somebody.
Matt:I think that's where we're different than most of the other people around us. We care about the customer. I'm not to the point where they're invited over for Sunday chicken. We care enough about them to help them. For an example, just this past Monday I had a guy came on my lot. He was looking for a very specific size building. I didn't have it in stock. It was pretty large and when I finally got to the root of what he was wanting it for, he needed it as temporary housing because his house had burned down two days prior and he'd been given permission by the city to put temporary housing out there while his insurance company demolished the rest of the house and rebuilt it. But I couldn't provide him with anything.
Matt:But, I called around to the other dealers close to me the ones that I've hauled for years and found him something and I called him back and I said you can go over here and talk to this lady. Here's her phone number. She's got something that might work for you. He's like I'm on my way right now, so I don't know if he bought but you helped the customer.
Shed Geek:I mean, the goal was that you helped the customer. My goal was to help him.
Matt:Yeah, I couldn't help him at the moment. I didn't have anything to provide him, so why not at least go one step further and help him?
Shed Geek:I think it just depends on it's probably a little bit of like integrity and character and who you are but then I think it's also probably depending on your business model. You know, some guys just want to take over the world, right? You know, if they couldn't help the customer, they'd rather send them away than send them to somebody else like, look, I just want to be a helper.
Shed Geek:Because I mentioned this, I'm doing a keynote speech coming up here pretty soon in Millersburg, Ohio and I'm wanting to start doing more of that. Like, I've been asked to speak at a couple events I want to start going and speaking at more man, I've been diving into this. I've really been diving into what I want to speak on in this and a couple things have come to mind. You know, like, uh, the heart of being a giver as opposed to being a taker and trying to understand when it's okay to take because, like, hey, I've provided you with information, knowledge and something's going to make you money, so there's a fair trade value here. Right, like, I need to get paid something for that. But you know, I don't want to take so much that it inhabits you from being able to make a living either. Okay, there's got to be. So, I'm trying to figure out this giver taker mentality. And the other thing is being a helper. You know, when we started the podcast, it was a labor of love, so we just put information out there. It wasn't a job at that point. It was just like, hey, I just love doing this. Uh, it's free information.
Shed Geek:It's everyone that I've ever talked to, including any of our competitors are still welcome to come on here because we want to have difficult conversation, even with people that we don't agree with. When I have difficult conversation, to kind of get through what's the best thing for the customer and the end users and the industry and all of that. And to me you only do that whenever you face some difficulty in your conversations. Like, the perseverance of your faith is perfect by the testing of it, right? So, I believe that if we live in an echo chamber and we're just like, ah, I don't ever want to talk about anything difficult, I don't want to talk about collaborations, I don't want to talk about any of that. It doesn't benefit us as a whole. So I enjoy getting on here. But I told this person, I said I can help anybody I want and there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah.
Shed Geek:Nothing you can do. It's like I heard a pastor say one time they're atheists, I can pray for them and there's nothing they can do about it.
Chris:Well, I'm guilty of giving. I wouldn't say I'm guilty, but I'm guilty in the sense that I do give a lot of information out to people and don't expect anything in return you know, I have people that call me with building questions and frame the shed industry you know that are younger guys. You mentioned earlier um about the group.
Shed Geek:Uh, yeah, we were hanging out with last night some of the guys on site building that went through the shed academy and I'm always trying to share my knowledge of framing and building with them.
Chris:You know, let's try this here. This could be more efficient, but it's reciprocal. Because they're like, hey, you should try this with your website and SEO, because I'm not that guy, you know yeah, yeah it's not wood and a nail and it's all um, but I also have a youtube channel um it's Old Liberty Structures. If you want to get me a subscribe we'll plug away.
Shed Geek:Go for it.
Chris:So, YouTube Old Liberty Structures, but on that channel I'm showing people how to build a shed, how to do a proper portable shed floor. It's more geared towards the DIY person. Oh, you didn't get ramps with your shed. You have a shed. You never got ramps, so here's an easy way to build ramps. Um, you know how do you build a loft in your shed? Here's how you build a loft in your shed. Here's how you build a step. Here's how you put door magnets on, and I can tell you how to get those too, if you want to. You know, look at that are you charging for that?
Chris:yeah, yeah, for the magnets, yes, just you know just stuff like that, you know, just to try to equip people to be able to do some of the stuff on their own. Because I feel like it's funny because the older crowd that came into the dealers, the lots, they had a pretty good wealth of knowledge where they could figure out the concrete, they could figure out who to call for a contract. It's the younger generation. That's just kind of like. I don't know any of this it's the younger generation.
Shed Geek:That's just kind of like. I don't know any of this.
Chris:They're the ones who are, who are all talking about the SEO and all the ones that are talking about online presence and uh yeah so the SEO guy who wants to build a shed, but it's like you know what? I don't know how to do it, but I would like to learn. And now, well, they can go to my youtube channel and I'll tell them how to build a shed, you know, and show them how to do it step by step. So that's kind of where I like, I like teaching, I'm, I'm, yeah, I think that's my gifting.
Shed Geek:I do enjoy doing that I think it's awesome. You never know what it's going to turn into. I got a million ideas. We're 50 minutes in. I don't know you guys can see the clock it goes by way faster whenever you're just chatting. But, and, matt, we've been Facebook friends for a long time so, like, I follow you, I see you commenting on that and so it's nice to meet you and actually have a, you know, a friendship there. And, Chris, I've known you for quite some time, so we talk a lot on the phone but just excited to see what the future holds for you guys and the industry as a whole. It's really been fun, man, like podcast is coming up on four years and I never expected that. It's just been fun. You know, like, to me these moments are fun because someone can call in, they can listen to this today and hopefully they can get some valuable information and then cost them a thing and, like that's what we want to do continue to provide that space, provide content that's helpful for you to want to listen to.
Matt:So with guests like you guys. It it makes it easy. We appreciate the opportunity.
Shed Geek:We'll let you guys get over to the show or whatever you're doing today. We're going to head over there and then go line up another interview. Appreciate you being on today.
Matt:It's been a lot of fun, thank you.
Shed Geek:Thank you, all right, thank you.