Shed Geek Podcast

Building Prosperity in the Shed Market with Expert Insights

• Shed Geek Podcast • Season 4 • Episode 86

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Uncover the secrets of the shed industry with special guests Jonathan Miller and Tyler Schultz as we explore how social media and mules have revolutionized this traditionally niche market. Hear Jonathan’s captivating journey from Indiana to Southern Illinois, and how a fateful opportunity at Cardinal led him deep into the world of sheds. With humor and revealing anecdotes, you'll discover the vibrant community, and innovation that make this industry so compelling.

Discover the resilience and adaptability of the storage shed industry as it evolves from serving mobile home parks to becoming essential for high-value homes. We'll discuss the fascinating cultural differences in storage needs across the globe and the rising trend of homeowners opting for multiple sheds. This episode highlights the industry's growth potential and the increasing demand for storage solutions, offering insights into how the shed business continues to adapt and thrive through economic flux.

Join us as we dive into the fascinating dynamics of the shed and equipment leasing industries. Jonathan and Tyler share how relationships and community support have been pivotal in their careers, emphasizing the blend of structure and flexibility that allows for professional success and personal fulfillment. Learn about innovative growth strategies, the trend toward modular homes, and the financial education necessary for long-term success. This engaging conversation encourages a shift in mindset towards collaboration and responsible money management, setting the stage for future prosperity within the industry.

For more information or to know more about the Shed Geek Podcast visit us at our website.

Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube at the handle @shedgeekpodcast.

To be a guest on the Shed Geek Podcast visit our website and fill out the "Contact Us" form.

To suggest show topics or ask questions you want answered email us at info@shedgeek.com.

This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Union Grove Lumber

Shed Challenger
Cardinal Leasing
Cardinal Manufacturing

Sambassador:

Welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. Your host, Sam Byler. I'm here with Friday Fun Day version and, like always, we're beating all the rest. I can say that. I can say that because I got all the rest here. I got the boss man on again. I'm doing pretty good here. I'm batting over 500 with you, Shannon.

Shed Geek:

Your YouTube numbers too are really I've noticed. They're really good.

Sambassador:

That's because haulers like the look. They like pictures and videos.

Shed Geek:

Maybe that's it.

Sambassador:

Yeah, you follow me. I'm trying to help you out here. Well, I don't know.

Shed Geek:

I just know that your, your YouTube numbers are great, so, like I have to tell you the same thing, I told the audience uh, you know, for the longest time you're still my most number one listened to podcast out of nearly 300.

Sambassador:

And you always sound amazed when you say that Well, why wouldn't he? Be, I don't get it.

Shed Geek:

You know, you should know by now A lot of people, and I use this analogy all the time. I've never used it on the podcast because a lot of people would be like I don't know who that is, but there was this really controversial radio personality that came out at one time that you guys may know of, called Howard Stern, and they said Howard Stern's numbers were going through the roof. And whenever they came in and said why is this number going through the roof? They said of the people who love to listen to him, they can't wait to see what he's going to say next. They were like, well, what about the people that don't like him? They can't wait to see what he's going to say next.

Sambassador:

Did I just get compared to Howard Stern?

Jonathan Miller:

Like that was the most backhanded. You didn't even see it coming no.

Sambassador:

I saw it. I'm getting to where. I understand it pretty good.

Shed Geek:

People love to listen to you, whether they love you or not. Yeah, I know.

Sambassador:

It's whether they love you or not, Love or hate. They're like what's coming next? My phone's beeping. I'm also excited because we finally have corralled this guy into doing an episode with us. I know you got a little bit of a chip on your shoulder because it took me to get him to sponsor the. Shed Geek after you worked on him for a while.

Shed Geek:

Maybe I should be addressing that with him.

Sambassador:

That might take a while. To be fair, he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, but he's to be fair.

Shed Geek:

It might take a while to be fair, he's. He doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, but he should for me from a long time ago.

Sambassador:

So yeah but he's been gracious enough not to. Yeah, so I'm honored to be here with my buddy, Jonathan Miller. Um, he's, he's been in so ever. I call it the Facebook era. You know we just celebrated 10 years on our Facebook page.

Shed Geek:

Oh, wow.

Sambassador:

August was 10 years of the Shed Hauler page on Facebook, and so that's kind of the current era that I feel like we're in, and Jonathan's always kind of been a part of that. You know, the mules started floating around. I remember when I went back into Holland this time around, mules were a thing but I wasn't having one. Why would you waste money on something that you didn't need? And you know we're talking 2011, 2012, and you guys were already in business. But you know, far be it from somebody. I mean that that was for somebody who didn't know how to move sheds you know, so you've been around.

Sambassador:

um, you brought Tyler Schultz on board. He's here with us today. I mean, you go back a little ways, Georgia boy, and I've seen you around and you were hauling yeah, so glad to have you guys on today. One of our sponsors, Cardinal Leasing, love to have you guys on board, as Shannon loves to refer to. It took Sam to get you here, but I'm glad you're here.

Sambassador:

Whatever it takes, I never let that on, especially now that I got referred to as Howard. I mean, that's just like a low blow right there. So I'm going to milk this thing as long as I can. So, I want to know how you got I don't really know how you got started in sheds. Like tell me, just give me a little background on. I mean, did you grow up in Illinois and what you know? Did you come out of school and you're like man, I'm gonna be the shed guru guy and I'm gonna lease equipment and do that word.

Jonathan Miller:

so um, grew up in Indiana, northern Indiana then moved down here. My parents moved down here southern Illinois, okay, in 2001 and um, and that was right at the times when Steve and James Borntrager were starting to build sheds, for Cardinal Yep and so pretty much right out of the gate they were wanting to build a shop and so I built a shop with Steve. Steve and I did a partnership deal, okay and just it was really I was 21 years old and kind of wanted to do something and we just moved. So, I didn't really have any good job and so, yeah, nothing, I mean it wasn't really any. It was just kind of an opportunity that came along and then from there, you know, but basically, but at that time we were just in buildings, so we did buildings and that was all.

Jonathan Miller:

In all honesty, all the time that I was helping and working with Cardinal, which was 10 years, my focus was buildings. It wasn't mules, okay, I mean I helped over winter, you know I'd help do stuff. You know I'd build carriages, do stuff over winter when we were slower, but it wasn't like mules was not really my thing, I was doing buildings. That's interesting, but it was through that time. I mean, obviously I was part of you know, some of those conversations and stuff, but it was, I mean, it wasn't that you know. Basically, they started I'm thinking, oh, four or five range probably.

Jonathan Miller:

I'm not sure exactly what the when we would have actually done the first one that James would have. I think James pretty much put those together, the first couple, didn't it? We'd put it on a rig send it out.

Sambassador:

Tear it down, tear it down, go again yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

I remember honestly this sounds really crude, but I do remember Steve and I evenings after work screwing two-by-fours together and trying to find the right you know hinge points and stuff to get the arms to work.

Shed Geek:

Oh yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

And you know, to try to figure out how we could get the linkage to work and make that work. We'd, you know, just do it with two-by-fours.

Sambassador:

Yeah, it's kind of so. That's the way I fab all my stuff. Everything I fab up, I fab up in wood first. Yeah, because I'm just I can do steel work but I'm not near as comfortable Like I fab it out of wood. Yeah, to figure out how it works. So then it was. It wasn't until a couple years ago. So I knew Cardinal was born like the mules were born from necessity, from somebody that had been doing sheds or whatever. But it wasn't until a couple years ago that I realized there was a Cardinal Shed Company. I had never known that and that's what you're talking about. You guys actually did sheds first.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, that's what we were doing, and the mules were just the add-on.

Shed Geek:

Needed a way to move them. A way that was more efficient, more effective than.

Sambassador:

Well, I mean, they were just smarter than us. We just figured out how to run pipes better, and more blocking tackles and more cable and more cable.

Shed Geek:

First time I've ever heard that in my life they were smarter than us.

Sambassador:

No, I mean it doesn't take much to beat me, I've got the muscle and the brawn. I mean I've got the muscle and the brawn. I carried LVLs with me on my trailer Because when you couldn't move a building any other way, you just put your shoulder into it and moved it.

Jonathan Miller:

But you still had smaller sheds. I've really wondered where the industry would be if that would have happened. I mean because at that time, like at that time Dirksen was doing 12x30s, 12x32s, but that was big. Those were the huge buildings. So, we started with that meal and then we were doing 14 wides, 16 wides, and we were doing stuff like that before anybody else was because we could get them in. Yeah yeah, yeah. And then everybody else, of course did it, which you know, just I don't know.

Jonathan Miller:

I wonder what would have happened. Would we still be doing small sheds?

Sambassador:

No, I think we would have come up with some other way. No, I think the thing it was always like. Right now we still can't seem to figure out. I had a conversation today you know we're here at the Midwest. Is that what it's called Midwest Barbecue In Indiana, southern Indiana Cliff Knepp's deal, which, by the way, was a fantastic day? They had been calling for rain all week and it is beautiful here today.

Shed Geek:

I mean, you couldn't I feel like there's more rigs here than this is Year four. I've done three of them and I felt like this was the most rigs I've seen.

Sambassador:

Oh yeah, it seems like there's more rigs than ever before, but I don't know. I guess I feel like, well, it's like we still haven't capped out on size.

Shed Geek:

Where's Vargas? You know he was here today.

Sambassador:

And 20 by 60s are a thing now, and it seems like we're just constantly battling. And I told Vargas, I said you're literally the guy in the industry that's going to determine where we stop, because as long as you keep saying yes, they're just going to keep getting bigger and heavier. Um, there's a couple WKM trailers out here that are massive, and that wasn't what WKM was known for. No, they were made, you know, sleek, smooth, fast, light. And now look at those things.

Jonathan Miller:

Norman told me he's they've got one they're working on right now. That's got three 25K axles on it. Three 25K axles and it's going to Texas. Yeah, I'm sure that's where the last three 25K axle trailer went.

Sambassador:

That's crazy. So yeah, so you know you've been around. I mean, yeah, you're pushing, you're coming up on 25 years before long in this business. Do you see any end in sight?

Jonathan Miller:

Like where are we headed? I mean it's a good question that I think a lot of people have thought about. It's really funny because when I think back 25 years, kind of before I got started that honestly was a question then is does everybody have a building? Oh yeah, Like it's because you know that was kind of in the early earlier days of the of the sheds out here, you know, in east that had been going for many years yeah, yeah, yeah, but here yeah but out here that was.

Jonathan Miller:

You know, that was there, just wasn't a lot going out here and um. So I don't see any insight at all. I don't think it's not slowing down.

Shed Geek:

No.

Jonathan Miller:

And it won't slow down as far as and what I'm saying, though, is there are all kinds of economic things and other things that affect us, but the actual industry has adapted and grown a lot, and so, if we keep doing what we're doing, the market is going to keep growing, unless everybody runs out of money and out of stuff. American people run out of stuff Seems unlikely, it seems unlikely.

Jonathan Miller:

Even the way he said it, it's unlikely. I'm just saying there are countries in this world that wouldn't need sheds because they don't have any money and they don't have any stuff to store. Yeah, I'm saying in a catastrophic situation, but we'll have many more problems then. But currently, you know, I don't know. I wish I knew better what these numbers were. But I would say, if I, you know, if we back up 20 years back, when, you know, when I was in the shop building buildings, we were doing all these t-111 shingle, pushing them out, and probably I would guess it would be safe to say probably only 2% to 5% of the actual population was a customer.

Jonathan Miller:

It was, you know, we sold a lot in mobile home parks and a lot of and just a lot in the you know mid to low end, you know housing areas and stuff, whereas now everybody's doing stuff and set up a million dollar house. It's no big deal. Our customer base has grown tremendously to where now I don't know what it is right now. I wish I knew. There's probably guys out there that know obviously better than I do. But to where now? If you would go into, you go into a general, given reasonable rural area, your potential customer might be 15% of the people 20% of the people instead of that really small slice that we had 20 years ago.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah.

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Sambassador:

I see it even so. Yesterday I was stalking out an area in Tennessee and basically, you know, drove through the area five different directions and it blows my mind how many people have two or three sheds sitting in the backyard, and then there's houses that don't have any and you can tell by the stuff sitting around. They should have one or two. You know what I'm saying. So that's our old original storage building customer. But when you said something about you know another country that they don't have anything to store it in or they don't have the money, and I'm like, well, if they did like we do here in that situation, you'd live in it. Yeah, so it never ends. Yeah, you, you'd live in it. Yeah, so it never ends. True, yeah, you know, because we know, we all know that it's.

Tyler Shultz:

You know there's a market there. I've had multiple people move into 8x16s that I was certain.

Sambassador:

Yeah, 8x16s, I mean they were moving from out of a tent into 8x16, out of a tent into an 8x16, I feel like I had a really good joke whenever you said they've got two or three sheds.

Shed Geek:

I thought are those with two or three rent-owned companies too.

Tyler Shultz:

Are those?

Sambassador:

legal Well, see, this is where it gets a little sticky with Jonathan because, it's like you know, we tend to put him in his equipment leasing box, but he's also in the shed. Brandon business um, you know, Tyler here is involved with him because you're on the equipment side and John's like I need somebody to handle this.

Sambassador:

So I can, you know, I honestly I think the only reason he needs somebody to handle it is so he can go hunting more, you know yeah and you know it's, it's like you know he, he, just he needs somebody to cover all his bases for him yeah but I can't talk about him behind his back, but I can talk about him when he's sitting right in front of me, so it works good. So, yeah, where do you, Tyler? Where do you? Where do you come from? What? What's your story in the shed industry?

Tyler Shultz:

um, I'm, I'm one of the 2020 crew. Yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

Got in in 2020.

Tyler Shultz:

I started hauling. Well, Sam Sworey got me started. Without Sam Sworey, I would have never been able to get going. Yep, and yeah, he helped our family out more than I think he ever realizes. Came to the sheds from dirt work.

Sambassador:

Oh nice.

Tyler Shultz:

Yeah, and did that. Well, I think I ran my first track up four years old, so, yeah, yeah, equipment's my background, um, and so I hauled for premiere for a little bit, until they're out of Taoka, Georgia, until I heard that heritage was opening a shop in my hometown or not hometown, but where I live in Rennes, yep, and so then we had the shop switched multiple companies over the last several years, and so I've hauled for multiple companies now out of the same shop.

Tyler Shultz:

The same shop and then I saw an ad I had done. I bought a trailer from WKM or leased it through Cardinal and had always enjoyed working with Cardinal Leasing. They'd always treated us very well. I was in a wreck, the trailer was. I mean it's a lease, I shouldn't have to stop making lease payments. But they allowed me to pause lease payment stuff while we were waiting on insurance to settle and just got back going, saw Jonathan's ad up and it seemed like with Shed Hauling I stayed busy six days a week and seemed like a chance to maybe be with my family a little more.

Sambassador:

Yeah, yeah.

Tyler Shultz:

Yeah.

Sambassador:

Jonathan said something today, somewhere here today, about how. I don't know exactly how he worded it, but I gathered that he's like the best guy to work for me is a guy that's a proven story to my system. Yeah, and it's cool because he does have a system much, as some days we wonder what he's doing.

Tyler Shultz:

You never know with him.

Sambassador:

It's like hit or miss, but, yeah, to see somebody succeed and then be able to come to work for them, I think it's perfect. I think it works great that you're able, that you can do that.

Shed Geek:

Well, to go from a client as well.

Sambassador:

Yeah, you know like.

Shed Geek:

You've got real time experience working with the company, so it's as good a testimony as any.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, it is, and that's what I was and hopefully, you know I'm not much of a speaker, so you know when I was kind of doing my little deal earlier today of, but I really think and Tyler knows that firsthand experience of you know some of the conversations we had just while he was working, I mean, and I have a lot of those and I really enjoy those. You know how you can help guys get from point A to point B and then they get home where they don't need me anymore and they're going.

Shed Geek:

Not all heroes wear capes, Jonathan, I'm just saying not all heroes wear capes, some wear white shirts. Some wear white shirts with leasing on it.

Tyler Shultz:

Cardinal leasing. But that I mean it's got a, there's a feel-good part to it that goes beyond like a job.

Shed Geek:

There's like a purpose created, like you're seeing someone's life helped. That's one of my favorite things about the podcast. That amazed me even from the beginning of it was like listening to these people's stories and hearing them give shout outs to guys like Sam Sworey for and like hey, you don't know that part how much that helped me and I'm like guys.

Shed Geek:

That's why it's telling your stories a good thing, because it's like we're building community and like all of that stuff. So, like those guys I don't know you ever heard that saying like if somebody's on your mind, give them a text, give them a call, tell them oh yeah, you know, like if you're thinking about them and you're like man, I really appreciate that guy.

Shed Geek:

Hey, it's just like the same thing I have to do with my wife. I've, whenever we first got married, I'd tell her all the time she looked nice, but now, when I think it, I go why didn't I say that I got to tell myself hey, you need to tell her.

Tyler Shultz:

She can't read your mind.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, that's true. So you know, it's good to tell those people, reach back out to them and say thanks for what you did.

Sambassador:

Plus, I love when somebody gives a shout-out on the podcast, because now I can go get him and I can make him do a podcast.

Tyler Shultz:

You need to. I've been working on him. Believe you me, I work on that boy. I don't know. If I had a hero, it would probably be Sam Swart. He's a good dude.

Sambassador:

I mean he is just straight up good dude. He's a little bit like Jonathan and me in the fact he's. It seems like he's got about a dozen different things that he's trying to pull off all at the same time, but he does it well.

Shed Geek:

I mean same time, yeah, but, um, he does it well. I mean, he keeps plugging away. He's got a lot going on. Um, I want to touch back, if you're okay with it, on something you guys were talking about earlier, and it kind of goes along with like cliff's message whenever he spoke today and he said hey, how nice is it to set down competition for the day and everybody here get together and talk about things that are for the betterment of our job, and that's what they're doing, and I I've said this before this this was full in here chairs and people, and there's many podcasts happening right there at these tables. Oh, it's podcasts that'll never be recorded.

Shed Geek:

No, they are the best conversations that you wish you could capture and they only happen in the comfort of somewhere like here, where you learn and get comfortable with other people and it's like you can put that down for the day and come do that, and that goes along with, like what you were saying earlier about. Are we saturated, like what you were saying earlier about? Are we saturated like the, the, the, the walk-in rent to rent guys, the, the, you know the ones they set up like?

Shed Geek:

public storage and all of that stuff yeah these guys are kicking our butt yep, I mean, there's so many renters using those spaces that don't have a shed in their backyard, where it's convenient, it's safe, it's all these things so like I think we've still got a long way to go before we hit saturation absolutely yeah, then those guys are our competition, not the other shed builders around us.

Jonathan Miller:

I mean seriously, yeah I mean.

Tyler Shultz:

Well, we heard it in the presidential debate about housing being a problem. I personally believe that it's going towards modular. I believe a lot of the shed companies are going to go towards building modular homes.

Sambassador:

Oh yeah, we've got it. Every area you go into somebody's working on it and they're not even remotely close to covering. So, a lot of what I see in the modular shed industry is high-end stuff. I'm waiting for somebody to pull the affordable housing card on the shed side, because all the shed cabins we're seeing are high-end. Where's the guy that's doing it on the low end Takes the same codes. I get that Same building codes and all that. But you know I'm seeing these shed, these cabins. You know they're starting at $129,000, $149,000, and they're going to $300,000, $400,000. And it's like wait a minute, where's the guy that's doing them for $79 to $189?

Shed Geek:

Where's that guy at? For housing as opposed to like a lake house?

Sambassador:

Yeah, because we haven't even touched that market yet, and it's like I keep banging it around in my head. You know like I need something else to do.

Jonathan Miller:

You can do that in your spare time. I can do that in my spare time. You don't have a lot of projects going right now.

Sambassador:

No, I don't, I mean just kind of in between. I could pretty happily get rid of about six of them right now and do that.

Shed Geek:

But what gets me is, like a lot of guys say, you know, there's no ideas out there, and I'm like man, this is a perfect idea. In my opinion. There's a couple of guys like you said that are modular certified in a couple different states and you talk to them and you find out what they're doing. But so many people talk to me about how do you get modular certified? Who can walk me through that path? When we interviewed Mike and Arlan, Arlan made a great point because we had this guy on I can't think of his name right now who helped that process. You may know him, but he helped get them through that process and he was talking about how he was so excited about it. I said, man, there's a business idea there for somebody who would teach people how to do that. And Arlen said well, we've got to ask ourselves are we teachers?

Jonathan Miller:

Oh, yeah, and I was like wow.

Shed Geek:

Arlen's sharp dude. That was a great comment, Harlan understands his limitations.

Sambassador:

Yes, like what he's good at and what he's not good at. Yeah, he's like I don't know that I'm Some of us just keep chomping off and doing whatever. You know whether we're good at it and then we come up with oh no, we suck again, deal, you know, because it's like that didn't work out so good.

Shed Geek:

But he's right, but you're exactly right, that is.

Sambassador:

Somebody out there needs to do that, because we're definitely headed down that path. I'll tell you something else that runs along with that is the whole container industries. It's steadily growing into the shed industry. More and more guys. You know, you see it in in the trailer manufacturers. They're building trailers that do containers too. And we see it in the hauler page, we see it across the board on hauling guys that they're doing containers also. Now, yeah, um, and then what you, what you see people do with containers is crazy. So, the number five food court in the United States. I know you guys don't know this, but you want to take a guess at where it's at and what it is.

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Shed Geek:

What do you mean like number five, largest or no?

Sambassador:

not rated best food court in the us gosh, no idea, it's in Greenville, South Carolina, and it's made up of containers it's called gather Greenville and they put containers in a square and some of them have two of them stacked on top of each other.

Sambassador:

Some of them have patios on top of the roof of the first one and then have roofs up on top of that. There's little stairways running everywhere. They have public restrooms set up in one of them, but it's all containers. It's all containers and they're all food courts. There's like food trucks inside of the containers in every one of them, and then they have a big area in the middle. That's the hangout area. They bring live music and stuff in and that place went from nobody to number six in a hurry and now it's creeping its way further up as it goes along. And I look at that and I'm like this is in our industry, like we have guys that are doing this kind of stuff, that and you know I love looking at people that take containers and build houses out of them. It's out of the-the-box thinking. We see the same thing in the shed site.

Tyler Shultz:

Yeah.

Sambassador:

Don't we? Okay your Cardinal Sheds. You know, you said it. You started out building the typical little sheds. What are you building now? You know they get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, yeah, I'm in 1652s. I think, yeah, bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, yeah, I don't, I'm in 1652s.

Sambassador:

I think, yeah, 1652, 52, 54 is kind of where everything's and you're not even in texas.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, exactly, you know it's we. We looked into it fairly heavily. At one point we went and talked to the city um zoning, our local city zoning, to try and figure out what all codes we needed to meet. You know all the IBCs and all that stuff. But then what's the local codes? And one of the one of the board members actually was a construction worker and he loved the idea and he ended up building a small home. But you know we definitely ran into the foundation issue really quick, cause you know he was like well, we can build something 1500 square feet square feet or 1,100 square feet, but can't move it.

Shed Geek:

Can't be mobile. So, like we went through and tried to learn a lot of that, I've been impressed by running into some of these tiny home guys and like trying to understand how they manage to become modular certified and like what's that process look like? One of the questions I've gotten twice in the last I don't know month was do you know an architect?

Shed Geek:

I need some actual engineered drawings and I'm like you know what, if I had to, I could not name a name of someone who has brand awareness as a architect in the in the shed industry. I don't know.

Sambassador:

If you guys can, I can't yeah, I don't know who does industry that's like. From my builder background I have architects I would go to if I wanted to. But yeah, you're, you're right, that's. You know we expo's coming up. You know we all like to go there and hang out. It's like I think you've mentioned already, it's like a family reunion. But every year I'm always looking for what's new. You know, what you know there's and, uh, that's actually. I don't know how we got off on that subject, but it's interesting that nobody has really picked up on that yet and took off with it. Now I do know, you know, building codes runs under an international code that we used to build houses under. That works across the US. But then each municipality, each county always adds or takes away whatever they feel like they want to do, and they're not necessarily running off that code. But that's the start. You have to run off of that and then figure out where you go from there. And there's guys doing it. There is, yeah.

Sambassador:

Those guys that are doing it, don't want to do it for anybody else. It's like you know they're they figured it out.

Shed Geek:

Well, I mean, like Arlan, he's being smart about it right, yeah, there's South Carolina, uh, Tennessee, Montana, Idaho, I can know they're every five or six companies off the top of my head that are modular, certified and it's like. And then the question becomes to a small builder, Jonathan. Like I didn't get in to do all of that. You know what I mean. Like I didn't?

Shed Geek:

I got in to build sheds, throw them out in my front yard, I'm drug into this other world. But there are guys, but there are guys who want it and they go chase it. But I don't know what's your answer to them. Do you need to change with the times? Do you need to? You know, is it okay? They can stay a mom and pop and be perfectly happy. I mean, like Del Beachy was here. Del Beachy is like one of my favorite guys that I've met and interviewed in the industry. Sat in his kitchen ate ice cream with him.

Shed Geek:

I mean just a salt of the earth. Guy Yep Right and been in it since 1982. His dad done it.

Sambassador:

He runs one of the most successful small businesses that I've ever seen, and he's like I'm happy and I'm tickled for him.

Shed Geek:

You know, I'm like, yeah, he's not trying to uh move mountains yeah, and his family's happy.

Sambassador:

He's happy. Huge shout out to him for his support to the brotherhood that never gets mentioned. Um, he's one of the quiet superstars behind the brotherhood that nobody even knows that and he won an event here today, didn't he?

Shed Geek:

oh boy, he placed anyway something, yeah he.

Sambassador:

He was on stage for yeah oh, with his mule three, and he actually told me when I got here this morning he was hooking back up to his trailer and he actually kind of apologized because I was looking at his Mule 3, and he's like I actually bought a 5.

Sambassador:

But I didn't bring it today and I'm like did you have to apologize to me? I think it's great that you bring it. He said well, I thought if I'd compete, maybe I should do it with a 3. With the three. And then he actually yeah, he was first, second or third because he was on stage. That's awesome.

Shed Geek:

But he's a good example. But then there's other guys out there that are taking off. I mean they're doing you know what I mean already $13 million in three years and I'm like, wow, that's amazing.

Sambassador:

I bet he sleeps easier than they do. Yeah.

Tyler Shultz:

You know what I'm saying? Very much so.

Sambassador:

Yeah, what do you see them for? Let's get back to a little bit what you're doing today. Currently, what are you seeing as far as your clients? Okay, here's a prime example of what I'm asking In 2019, somebody came and asked you to, you know, help them with a mule and a trailer, and they were looking at 100 grand. What are they looking at today?

Sambassador:

200, yeah you know it's easy doubled yeah some of it's even a little more than that. Yep, you know, we did two rigs. Um, well, I had two rigs that were brought to the brotherhood. We're always out of money, like we don't never have money, so it's. I'm constantly telling people no, I'm sorry, you need to talk to Jonathan, you know? And, uh, you know, they came in and 250 000 and I'm sitting there and man my brain just like freezes. You know, in 2012, I had to buy a 50 000,000 pickup truck and I about freaked out. And these guys, they have legit work. They got the work to keep the rigs paid for. But I can't just pick up a phone and call one of my guys and say, hey, I got a guy, he needs $250,000, and, by the way, I got another guy that needs it and they get done. But it's, how do you well, maybe Tyler can answer this, he did it. How do you become a success story today when you're looking at that kind of stuff?

Tyler Shultz:

I don't know if I became a success story, did I yeah?

Sambassador:

you did Well, to me it all comes down to a math problem.

Tyler Shultz:

as far as leasing, are you talking? Leasing yeah yeah, what becomes a math problem? If a 50-foot trailer makes more money than the 36-foot you're currently pulling, maybe you need to grab one more shed a month that that 52-foot trailer would do and that makes your extra payment you're making, and then everything else is on top. It works the same way as, like the guys that rent houses, they aren't buying the houses with cash out of their pocket. It's all a cash flow game.

Tyler Shultz:

Yeah, it's cash flow, as long as it cash flows, and the great thing with a lease is if it stops cash flowing, well then it becomes my problem, after that, your problem. It's Tyler's problem.

Jonathan Miller:

But what he's saying is right. I've seen it happen so many times, you know. So somebody wants you know, guys that you're talking to they've got, they can, they can. They've got 50 grand or whatever. They can borrow 50, 75, whatever. But but getting up to that next level, sure, maybe it'll cost them $1,000 a month more, $1,500 a month more, but if they make $5,000 more, hello, why not do it?

Sambassador:

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Jonathan Miller:

And it's like again exactly what Tyler said it's a math problem. Figure it out.

Sambassador:

Yeah, figure out your math and then you'll know where you're at.

Jonathan Miller:

Figure it out and make sure that you come out ahead.

Sambassador:

Yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

Because if they don't do their math and if they don't win, nobody wins.

Sambassador:

Mm-hmm, that's a good point. If your clients aren't winning, you're not going to win.

Jonathan Miller:

No, Not even close.

Sambassador:

Yeah, what is the? How do I word this? The hauling industry side of it, not the shed industry side of it, but the hauling industry side of it. You're pretty much nationwide. You got clients all over the place. Does it feel as stable as the rest of the industry? Like, do you see a weaker point on part of it than the other point, some other part of it? What's our weakest link? Driver burnout yeah, now I wonder how you know about that. You're preaching to the choir. I agree.

Sambassador:

It's like how do we keep these guys? Because it does they end up with the 250 000 note and you know they're paying five grand a month and they got it. They got to literally run it five days a week or six. Yeah, um, so this goes along with this, and Shannon might understand where I'm coming from on this, but we grew up the saying you got to make hay while the sun shines. In a shed hauler's life, the sun's always shining. We need to get this cleaned up and out of the way, because there are guys that keep saying this, week after week, month after month, year after year, and they're still out there slaving away and they're burning out. And they're not just burning out, they're not just burning out, they're burning their families out yeah, yep, you know, you know what I'm saying I totally.

Jonathan Miller:

I mean I, I think you know, right along with again Tyler hit it on the head driver, burnout. I think you've got too many drivers that don't know what they're doing, don't know if they know what they're doing, they don't know what they're making oh, you said that today.

Sambassador:

I mean you that was my look.

Jonathan Miller:

I mean from a leasing and a financing side. Tyler and I were talking this morning. We're having record months, like we are crazy busy yep and um and I think doing a. I think Tyler's doing a great job with the guys, but there is a side of me that that scares me a little bit again is so why do we have so many people that don't have enough money?

Jonathan Miller:

when they're working so much they're working hard, they're working so hard and it's like I really think, just all the inflation stuff and all the stuff we're dealing with and I'm not going to get into politics, but just all the stuff we're dealing with and have dealt with over the last four years pretty much every person that I talk to does not feel like they're getting ahead like they were five years ago.

Jonathan Miller:

That's almost universal, that it just you might be doing good, but it doesn't feel like it did. It doesn't feel it just. It feels like we're working harder, moving more dollars and just not just not gaining as much.

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What was that?

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You heard that too, Sam. What was that? Oh, that wasn't supposed to come out.

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What is it?

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Sam, I was given some confidential information. Not sure what I'm supposed to do now that you heard that, though.

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Well, what was it, Sam you? Gotta tell us.

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Well, you can't tell anyone. But the Cardinal engineers, the mule guys, have been at it again. They heard all the hollers bellyaching about a bigger machine. You know how they're always fussing about it ain't big enough. Well, guess what? They've got a bigger mule, A lot bigger. What? How about a mule with a 70 horsepower diesel engine that's built to move 40,000 pound sheds? You ought to see it. It's a real beast of a mule and it's up to any shed challenge. No way, Sam, a diesel donkey like you had. I mean, that's fantastic.

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Yep a diesel donkey like I used to have. Hey, there's a lot more stuff coming, but I've said enough. I'll get in trouble soon if I say any more.

Shed Geek:

So, politics aside, you know politics aside because I understand that affects us, I get it and I know that we're in a highly politicized year and moment, specifically, yeah. So, like that always makes it seem, at least from the national politics a little bit more. But if you put that aside, not ignoring it, is it the like, the I don't know what I'm trying to say like the glamour of owning a business? Like most people don't realize.

Shed Geek:

When we grew up it was always like this guy owned a business and you saw the tip of the iceberg but, you did not see the 50 years previously that he was an old, established guy in the community and the thought was immediately like I want to do what he does. I want to drive that new car that he's got, and it's like, but I'm going to take the shortcut there. That new car that he's got, and it's like, but I'm gonna take the shortcut there, yeah, I'm not gonna take the grinding it out for years and years and years because we only see the success, yeah, and then we want that and we almost feel entitled, as though we deserve it, without going through. It's like the same thing I tell my son i'm like, trust me, we grew up poor and then we grew into having enough wealth me and my family and then we made bad choices because we didn't change behaviors.

Shed Geek:

And we ended up right back into the same mess that I grew up in.

Jonathan Miller:

If you ever read the book Rich Dad, poor, poor Dad, that is like this sounds and we can cut this out if you want to but it's like my grandma.

Sambassador:

Here's our first moment, Troy.

Jonathan Miller:

My grandma always used to say like poor people have poor ways.

Shed Geek:

Oh, that's so true.

Jonathan Miller:

And it's not how much money they make, it's how they think about it and process it. If you give somebody $100 and they think, okay, I'm going to start selling lemonade or something, I'm going to start doing something.

Shed Geek:

Oh man, you're on one now.

Jonathan Miller:

And you give somebody $100 and they immediately go buy a new pair of shoes. Yes, they're going to be junk.

Shed Geek:

Conspicuous consumption. Wait a minute, I get paid to run.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, you conspicuous consumption.

Shed Geek:

Wait a minute I get paid to run.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, you get paid to run, sam.

Shed Geek:

No, I remember.

Jonathan Miller:

But it's like back into the back of, like it's a mind deal.

Sambassador:

It is yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

That some people, some children. You see it in children. It makes a big difference how they're raised, but you see it in children already of you know. You give them an opportunity and they what can I do to go somewhere with this or how can I spend it? And what you said, Shannon, is so spot on so many people that actually you can start getting somewhere unless you change how you think the behavior. Yeah, you go right back down.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, we did that and then it took us a long time to climb out of it. I remember the small time I did spending college. College, we had to write an article called conspicuous consumption and it talked about, like in the inner cities and urban cities, how it was more important to be viewed with a pair of Jordan's than a full belly. You know, because, like socially I was, I was not accepted as much if I didn't have a nice, cool new pair of j's. But I'm hungry should have used that money more wisely. It's the same thing I tell my son every day. I'm like I promise you, I promise you, I promise you, I promise you this will always be true. You will never gain as long as you spend more in the month than you earn.

Sambassador:

It's a basic math principle. It's back to what he said it's a math problem, it's discipline. Math principle it's back to what he said, it's a math problem, it's discipline.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, yeah, you cannot spend more than you earn and be complaining about why things aren't working out. You just can't. It sounds like we're probably really coming down on guys right now, right, but I mean it's also the truth.

Jonathan Miller:

It bothers me, it bothers me when I see that. It bothers me when I see like there's nothing like more rewarding than sitting, than working with a bunch of people that are getting ahead and being successful, yes, and so when you see people struggling it, you want to help them.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, you want to. You want to see people gain in life and um, and so it's so. I think it's a, I think it's a deal. Like I know, Tyler, and I have talked about this. Like you know, man, maybe we should just, maybe we should just do it is about doing, you know, more educational, like Facebook posts and stuff of um. I actually had a bit more of a speed one of the speech deal today that I had. I was going to do a little bit more instead, you know what? I'm not going to stand up there and do a bunch of numbers stuff. I'm not good at doing stuff like that anyhow, but especially doing it just off the top kind of is it doesn't really work. But how could we educate, help educate people better to where they know where they're at they're gaining and succeeding?

Shed Geek:

Great question. Well, it starts with coming together and being willing to work together, collaborating things like this, coming together and not having to be across the aisle. I think I used the analogy earlier. I said you know, we're all me, you and Dennis Fisher was sitting here talking and you had basically three different RTLs represented there. I was like you know, we're not in gangs.

Jonathan Miller:

Don't count Dan's. Hopefully he'll listen to this.

Shed Geek:

I bet you, if he does, he's sweating. Right now I'm getting another call. I know it, I just know it, but it's like we're not in gangs. Like for the betterment of everyone. We don't have to not like each other, but what is going to be better for the people in the industry and I think if you have a heart for that it shows yeah.

Jonathan Miller:

And most of us do yeah, like the vast majority of the industry does yeah, yeah. Like it's not 100%.

Sambassador:

Yeah, it's not 100%, but it's like everything else. It seems like the 10% always screams the loudest.

Jonathan Miller:

Yeah, those are the ones that are doing the crazy Facebook posts and stuff, the guys we get to babysit for.

Sambassador:

But as long as you keep recognizing the 90%, it still comes back around.

Shed Geek:

Do you guys feel? Someone asked me this like do you feel like we need like? You know you've got the NBSRA and the RTO space and we've got some really cool representation. You know you've got the NBSRA in the RTO space and we've got some really cool representation. You know what I mean for the industry. But is there anything trade-related for our industry? Or am I just missing it and it's there and I totally missed out? Or is there a space for someone to create sort of like a, a trade organization of some kind? And I'm not.

Shed Geek:

I mean like we've got the expo, we've got you know they they do a great job with the magazine, we've got publications and stuff like that. But is there like a? I don't know is. Is it needed also so that it could be organized? And the hardest part is it's to have to struggle through like the 13 years the NBSRA has right of like becoming trying to become a impartial and fair and all of that stuff. But that's okay, it's got to start somewhere. But is that needed? I don't know. I'm thinking off the cuff here, but someone asked me and they was like you know, there's so many like trade organizations, there's like an actual organization that represents the industry in so many like trade organizations. There's like a, there's like an actual organization that represents the industry, and so many of them, but it seems like the shed industry hasn't gotten that yet and I'm like I don't know interesting point

Shed Geek:

I may be who would organize it? How would it happen?

Jonathan Miller:

that's interesting. I hadn't. I hadn't thought about that.

Sambassador:

You're basically saying over the whole shed industry, part of it.

Shed Geek:

Yeah, like you know, the NBSRA was an excellent idea to be able to like represent the RTO side. It. Just, you know, there's a lot of years of like you've got to work it out and like how does it stay impartial? And all of these different things Like same for the shed industry. I mean like it just seems like no one wants more regulation.

Sambassador:

Yeah, well, that's, yeah, we have so we're regulated to death already.

Jonathan Miller:

But if you could get. I mean, and I feel like the you know I've, you know if we can pick on the NBSRA for a bit. I've been going the last four or five years and I know the first couple times I showed up I wasn't sure if I got a whole lot out of it or not. I wasn't sure. I'll be honest, I have always enjoyed it, but I wasn't quite sure if it was in my league or not, if it was really worth it. But I feel like that's really freshened up a lot over the last couple years, especially of just more teaching, more training, just more and more. Or maybe it's me that's changed, I'm not sure. But on my end I feel like I'm excited to be going this year again. I happened to be, I was actually helped with the planning this year, but it's fun. We've got a lot of really cool stuff.

Jonathan Miller:

Like really, really interesting things, Really interesting topics and speakers and stuff that are bringing value to it. And jumping back then to what you're saying is it wouldn't have to be a regulatory body, but what can be done to help different companies to come together and learn from each other?

Shed Geek:

Yeah, Things that you know. Yeah For the betterment of the industry and not just to promote one particular agenda or one business.

Jonathan Miller:

Oh exactly.

Shed Geek:

You know we find it I'm going to do a plug here so just hands down, admitting it straight out, but I'm using it as an analogy. We use a consultative based selling approach in our marketing. I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but like and I and this is this is the moment that I caught it we had a guy sign up to do a website and right before we got ready to hang up, he said oh, by the way, make sure that website shows up first on google he said no problem, and I was like no problem, I'll just click the button so immediately.

Shed Geek:

What happened in my mind? Because it's like you can choose to be offended and be like oh, you don't know what you're talking about or you can insult him, make him feel worse, or you can say I recognize the opportunity for education here.

Shed Geek:

He has no idea because he's a shed builder. Guess what, if he put me out there building sheds? He could make me feel foolish because I would really make some big time mistakes. And in my mind I'd be like that's simple, just do that. And he'd be like whoa, that's a $30,000 piece of equipment needed to do that. You're way out of your league here. And you're like oh, okay, so explain it to me. And that's what we did. We took the time and that's what we try to do now. Maybe that's what it is in this know your numbers kind of mentality. It's like you know a CPA is needed or someone needs to sit and explain this to you.

Shed Geek:

My one of my favorite examples is like oh, I want to make a hundred grand a year, but I make 25 grand a year now. It would be irresponsible for want to make a hundred grand a year, but I make 25 grand a year now. It would be irresponsible for you to make a hundred grand the next year because you would not know what to do with the surplus. It's not the destination, it's the journey. You need a year of making 40, a year of making 60, a year of making 80, and then get to your hundred so that you don't make massive mistakes with your money. And that's what we try to explain again in marketing. Shameless plug like oh, I need all of these things. No, you don't need to spend 25 grand right off the bat, you need to spend 10, and then you need to get here and then you need to spend more. And it's probably the same way in equipment. I would only assume, like why do you need? Maybe 200 is the baseline.

Sambassador:

That the baseline has going up, but you can definitely still do it for less. Um, that, that's the part of the bashes and the barbecues that are hard to overcome is the fact that a new guy shows up. He sees all the cool stuff, yeah, and he thinks he has to have it.

Jonathan Miller:

It's intimidating. They don't even want to bring their rig.

Sambassador:

Well, they don't want to bring their rig. But the guy that's even looking at getting a rig, he's like I got to have that, I got to have this and I got to have that. So that's why, when they call me and they ask me, I'm like why do you need it? What's going?

Shed Geek:

on.

Sambassador:

What's your picture or whatever? Why do you have to have all this stuff? And of course it's not very good for him to have to deal with me, because I'm the guy that still hauls the OVLs around and pushes barns around when he needs to. But that wears you out just as much as the stress of the money does.

Shed Geek:

Oh, for sure.

Sambassador:

And you know, here's the thing. I went through a stretch there where it seemed like every day we were moving 7 to 11 barns every day. Well, I don't like. Even if I could do that today, I don't need to. I don't have to move that many barns today to make it work so I can. That's back to what I was talking about making hay while the sun shines. You have to know your limitations or you're going to go through burnout. You have to know where to draw the line as to how much do I have to get done today to live, to fight another day, to live to fight another day. You follow what I'm saying? Yeah, do you agree with that? Yeah, because otherwise we see it a lot. Here's another bad thing about this industry we always see the guys getting in it. We never see the guys sneaking out the back door, unless they're a Josh Stover or somebody like that and they do it four or five times.

Sambassador:

And we see them coming and going. Thank you all for listening to today's episode. This was part one of a two-part episode, so be sure to listen next week. To finish today's podcast.